Wisper 905/Kalkhoff

[Dynamic Position]

Flecc is correct in his reply. Though, the unmodified Kalkhoff s-class would not be treated the same as a moped because it would be legal to use it on cycle paths etc. which mopeds are not allowed to use. At present it would not be a legal requirement to obtain insurance, but that might change if the government decides that it is merited.
The only problem with using an s-class bicycle is that OEM parts must be used because any user modification that does not comply with the EU Standards (as certified) will void the VCWVTA and the bicycle will then not be legal.
Only s-class bicycles that have an EU VCWVTA are legal.

It would appear that the 250w kits for electrifying bicycles are not so legal!

I would not think that 50 Cycles would ruin their reputation by knowingly trying to flog on illegal bicycles.

 

[overlander]

Sorry guys but i am getting lost so we are saying that the connect S is legal. If you were to buy a bike and leave it as standard it is legal?

 

[Dynamic Position]

Hi Dynamic Position,

Very interesting posts, but as a summary are you saying they are currently illegal but could be made legal in the future.

I might have picked you up wrong

When you say do not spoil a good thing do you mean we should not use the connect s?

Overlander,

As supplied by 50 cycles the Kalkhoff S-Class pedelec is illegal for use on UK roads, however if the rider holds an appropriate european style driving licence and fits a speedometer then it can be used legally on the UK roads. It would not be a requirement for 50-cycles to do this at the point of sale, but it probably would be something that they should think about doing.
It would also be good practice if 50-cycles informed purchasers of the legal position for using the pedelecs on UK roads and also how fitting the Kalkhoff throttle accessory will invalidate the pedelec's certification and make the bicycle illegal to use on UK roads.
The Kalkhoff s-class is a pedelec with specification designed for faster commuting and given its ability it will fill an important gap in the market.
The UK law still needs to be brought up to date, but the Kalkhoff E-Class Pedelec will be one of the greenest powered vehicles on the road and so it should receive favourable treatment when updated. It may be that we will need to register the S-Class Pedelec once UK laws are synchronised, therefor it will be necessary for purchasers to hold on to the certification documents that 50-cycles supply with the s-class pedelec.
There is nothing wrong with using an s-class bike so long as all the requirements are met.
It will be interesting to see what will happen to those bikes which do not meet the EU Pedelec Requirement, this could be the downfall for Cytronex systems!
If the UK government can be persuaded that e-bicycles have an important role to play in their (green) transport policy then that is all to the good. I just hope that our MP's can persuade the government to look at 'The Christina Project'.

 

[overlander]

Thanks for that Dynamic position, one last question what is the appropriate license you need to hold?

 

[Dynamic Position]

overlander,

The driving licence should be as flecc describes in his thread

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/3831-having-faster-e-bike-uk.html#post50007

However as one will be riding an EU approved vehicle class (without a direct UK equivalent), the driving licence would need to conform to the EU approved licence which has a photograph of the licence holder in addition to vehicle classes the holder is allowed to drive.

A typing error on my previous email, I did not mean to put "e-class"!

 

[Dynamic Position]

Perhaps Pedelec Forum members attending Presteigne 2009 can question 50 cycles representatives regarding the leagality of the Kalkhoff s-class pedelec. Did I read on this forum that 50-cycles will be demonstrating an unmodified Proconnect S at this event? If details can be provided perhaps we can all be enlightened to the validity of this particular pedelec for UK on-road use and requirements (if any) that must be met to ensure it is done legally.

I would only buy one if Kalkhoff provide a European Whole Vehicle Type Approval Certificate! Hopefully 50-cycles will take their s-class pedelec certificate to Presteinge.

 

[Tim]

Kalkhoff is issued the first European Union registration for fast E-bikes
The Pro Connect S supports the cyclist up to speeds of 40 km per hour
The E-bike manufacturer Kalkhoff received in March 2009 as the only producer the European Union registration for fast E-bikes. Up to now the Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt (KBA= Federal Motor Vehicle Office) had forbidden to use fast E-bikes – e-bikes, which can drive more than 25 km per hour with electrical support – on the basis that there was need of clarification in detailed technical questions. The Pro Connect S from Kalkhoff however was granted in March 2009 the release from the TÜV (German technical control board) as well as the European Union registration: the model was the only one in this speed class.

The Pro Connect S supports the cyclist with its especially efficient motor up to a speed of 40 km per hour. Even distant destinations can be reached with relaxation in proximity. Commuters can go to work fast but still unperspired: this makes an E-bike a real alternative to a car. The Kalkhoff Ebike with a turned-off motor rides just as easily like a normal bicycle.

The hydraulic rim brakes Magura HS11 provide safe stopping with safety and the acceleration is assured. And the Verso magnesium spring fork guarantees riding comfort. The Shimano Deore XT 9-G-chain shift allows an optimal pedalling frequenz. The lighting unit is supplied by the storage battery. The storage battery can be easily changed with a flick of the wrist and provides a cycling range up to 80 kilometers. Replacement batteries can be individually purchased so that the range of the e-bike can still be increased. The charging time is approximately three hours. The battery can be recharged up to 500 times regardless if it is wholly or only partially discharged. The trekking frame is aluminum.
The Kalkhoff Pro Connect S is available for Euro 2,799.00 at all Kalkhoff dealers. Your local dealer is 50cycles Electric Bikes and Motorcycles - Home of the UK's Best Electric Bicycles (incidentally, our price for the Kalkhoff Pro Connect S is more like €2540 including UK delivery)
- Press release -

Statutory provisions
Those who switch to a ride with a fast E-bike model have to check the statutory provisions of their country. In Germany the fast e-Bike belongs to the small vehicle class L 1e. The cyclist needs a motorassisted certificate (drivers license class M) or a valid drivers license whatever class. For those
persons who born before 01. April 1965, an identification card is sufficient. The buyer of the Kalkhoff Pro Connect S gets from the dealer a certificate of registration. Furthermore the cyclist needs an insurance number plate, if this applies under the statutory provision of the country of registration.
Incidentally: outside of built-up areas the fast e-bikes can be driven on the cycle paths. Within built-up areas the motor has to turned-off on the cycle paths. Wearing a helmet is recommended, but is however not required in Germany

 

[Wisper Bikes]

German 905se

Hi

I have a 905 SE with throttle that it is not legal in Italy, at the moment it is not important, the bike doesn't work at all and I am waiting for spare part to try to repair it, after 1 year out of use.
If finally the 905 SE will work I would like to continue to use the throttle, but in a legal way, only with pedaling.
Could you tell me ( or maybe Wisper could? ) how to obtain this result, that was a mistake on your bike, but that would be very useful for me in Italy.

I would like to ask you if the bike worked well without the "free pedaling" throttle, or did this influence other things, as the power or something like that?

Thanks

No problem Giani, I have emailed you, we can do that for you even on the old German 905's.

All the bast David

 

[flecc]

Statutory provisions[/b]
Those who switch to a ride with a fast E-bike model have to check the statutory provisions of their country. In Germany the fast e-Bike belongs to the small vehicle class L 1e. The cyclist needs a motorassisted certificate (drivers license class M) or a valid drivers license whatever class. For those
persons who born before 01. April 1965, an identification card is sufficient. The buyer of the Kalkhoff Pro Connect S gets from the dealer a certificate of registration. Furthermore the cyclist needs an insurance number plate, if this applies under the statutory provision of the country of registration.
Incidentally: outside of built-up areas the fast e-bikes can be driven on the cycle paths. Within built-up areas the motor has to turned-off on the cycle paths. Wearing a helmet is recommended, but is however not required in Germany

The equivalent driving licence requirement for Britain is as I posted here in my opening post.

There is no other equivalent legislation so using one in Britain is fraught with risks despite the EU approval, and we need our government to pass the appropriate legislation on how they wish these to be controlled and used, requirements like third party insurance, use of dual use pavements, cyclepaths, helmet wearing etc.

It's worth noting that despite the EU permission, only Germany has passed enabling legislation, the famously cycling oriented Holland hasn't, nor has Italy with it's well known easy going attitude to such things, so the chances of our rather legalistic country introducing it are vanishingly small.

I've remarked in passing in my earlier posts in this thread on the possible risks of using an S class bike in Britain, but I'll list them more fully if anyone wants me to.

N.B. I've spoken here of Britain rather than the UK, since our electric assist bike legislation doesn't apply in Northern Ireland where they are subject only to EU law on standard pedelec bikes.
.

 

[Dynamic Position]

There is no other equivalent legislation so using one in Britain is fraught with risks despite the EU approval, and we need our government to pass the appropriate legislation on how they wish these to be controlled and used, requirements like third party insurance, use of dual use pavements, cyclepaths, helmet wearing etc.

It's worth noting that despite the EU permission, only Germany has passed enabling legislation, the famously cycling oriented Holland hasn't, nor has Italy with it's well known easy going attitude to such things, so the chances of our rather legalistic country introducing it are vanishingly small.

.

Thank you for your post Tim. I think 50-cycles will attract cyclists, moped and low powered motorbike users who would not otherwise opt for a pedelec. Kalkhoff bikes deserve to do well because meeting the technical requirements for certification is a difficult and lengthy process and German test centres set very high standards.
It is very very unlikely that our UK government will not accept such a high quality pedelec under EU rules especially as they have not opted out and also because its green credentials fit directly with its aspirations for low carbon vehicles, congestion prevention and healthy alternatives for the travelling public.
I hope that some form of annual registration will be required because this could provide a useful measure of security. 50-cycles could provide another measure of security if they only supplied spares to registered owners (perhaps they already do this?).
Enabling legislation will be brought in throughout Europes national governments in due course now there is an approved s-class pedelec. 3rd Party Insurance might even be provided F.O.C. to drivers holding fully comprehensive policies for motor vehicles especially if the risk to the insurance company is lower when the holder commutes by pedelec instead of the car.
Our rather legalistic governments (and all the opposition party's) have been so busy tying us up with so much red tape over the past 50+ years our once world class engineering abilities have been strangled or transferred to China.
Hopefully our No More Hills development team will unveil the first (UK approved) EU t-class Cytronex assisted bicycle to win the Presteigne 2009 race.

 

[flecc]

It is very very unlikely that our UK government will not accept such a high quality pedelec under EU rules especially as they have not opted out and also because its green credentials fit directly with its aspirations for low carbon vehicles, congestion prevention and healthy alternatives for the travelling public.

Do you know of any moves to accept these Dynamic Position?

Since we've waited over six years so far to get proper implementation of standard EU pedelec legislation and it's likely that will take another two or three years before it happens, I'm not hopeful that S class legislation will be given any priority.

As ever, the government seems to be obsessed with speed reduction measures like proposals for a national 50 mph limit and 20 mph in built up areas, to meet a new target to reduce annual RTA deaths from circa 3000 to circa 2000.

Somehow 40 kph+ e-bikes using cyclepaths and dual use pavements doesn't seem to fit in that agenda. It wouldn't surprise me to learn of an EU opt-out application, or enabling legislation so stringent that it would effectively make the S class mopeds.
.

 

[Dynamic Position]

Do you know of any moves to accept these Dynamic Position?

Since we've waited over six years so far to get proper implementation of standard EU pedelec legislation and it's likely that will take another two or three years before it happens, I'm not hopeful that S class legislation will be given any priority.

.

Flecc,

With our political partys MPs the only transport they are really interested in is 'the gravy train'. No other system which they have meddle with seems to work smoothly or as efficient. The legislators are usually content to wait until existing legislation has been superceeded by events and then there is a big jump to catch up.
I have concluded that it does not matter what political party is in power because the 'operating system' is just not suitable for the 21st century global 24/7 Knowledge economy. Unfortunately the rest of the world has historically tended to follow the United Kingdoms lead! Governments have been slowly control.
'The Christina Project' utilises a neural processing based technology, which has the capability to transform the efficiency of how things are done. I hope that one day Gordon Brown (or a future Prime Minister) will take the time to learn about the project in order that a systems based upgrade to capitalism can be approved and implemented.
Hopefully the EU will soon be (accepting the advice of) copying the UK Government lead when it comes to electric bicycles and pedelecs, e-bikes and e-car legislation.
The t-class of Cytronex bike will come into existence - defined as a range of e-bicycles which utilises a turbo boost allowing bicycle acceleration to 27mph not using thottle or peddelec action.

 

[flecc]

I've absolutely no idea what you mean by "The Christina Project, a Google advanced search showing all manner of unrelated things from a water control scheme to a teens program?

Are you connected with Cytronex and/or nohills.com in any capacity?
.

 

[Mussels]

The t-class of Cytronex bike will come into existence - defined as a range of e-bicycles which utilises a turbo boost allowing bicycle acceleration to 27mph not using thottle or peddelec action.

So you mean the rider has to pedal hard? Or he turns round to go downhill? Or has fireworks tied on the back?
Is this an MIT press release?

 

[Dynamic Position]

I've absolutely no idea what you mean by "The Christina Project, a Google advanced search showing all manner of unrelated things from a water control scheme to a teens program?

Are you connected with Cytronex and/or nohills.com in any capacity?
.

Flecc,

You will not be able to Google 'The Christina Project', because of incompatiblites. The neural processing technology has a two-way process for learning/teaching which sequential based processing systems cannot access at present. The technology has been refined for governments enabling them to operate in The Knowledge Economy. The chief engineer had intended that the technology be used for 'The Third Way' in Politics, Gordon Browns vision - but New Labour happened instead! If only Gordon Brown just takes the time to learn from Blair, he could well find his poll ratings soar.
I only got involed with the project as a sideline to my studies at The Open University. I don't know how successful the project could be, but at the same time I suspects things will not improve in the UK until our government starts thinking about what needs to be done, rather than what else could be claimed for on expenses!

I am not involved with Cytronex or nohills.com in any capacity.

 

[Mussels]

You will not be able to Google 'The Christina Project', because of incompatiblites. The neural processing technology has a two-way process for learning/teaching which sequential based processing systems cannot access at present.

I don't quite follow you, are you saying that any mention of the project makes the Google servers implode because they aren't organic?

 

[Barnowl]

So you mean the rider has to pedal hard? Or he turns round to go downhill? Or has fireworks tied on the back?
Is this an MIT press release?

I can verify that the first 2 options are capable (on a good day) of boosting the Cytronex Trek to 27MPH already. You can forget the third. I've added the T-Bike to my wish list along with the cold fusion battery, a final salary pension, and an annual salary award.

 

[flecc]

Flecc,

You will not be able to Google 'The Christina Project', because of incompatiblites.

Thanks for the reply. A standard Google entry of The Christina Project tends to bring up Christian entries since Google assumes a mis-spelling, but entry in the "exact" box in advanced search brings up three results.

One of them on this link has a comment on the article at the foot as follows:

"The Christina Project" offers a possible systems based solution to the problems that governments face in the 21st Century. If the UK government was serious about national security it would investigate/risk-assess all possible solutions and implement the best. UK MP's should demand this approach.

Blair, Aberdeen, UK


Looks like this might be what you are speaking of, but if there's no disclosure of what it is, it won't achieve anything and would therefore have no point.

Do I detect a whiff of Scientology here?
.

 

[Django]

Do I detect a whiff of Scientology here?
.

I think the phrase, 'The neural processing technology has a two-way process for learning/teaching which sequential based processing systems cannot access at present,' is enough nonsense for me.

It will be interesting to hear an explanation as to why this thread shows up on a search in due course.

Hello Googlers.

 

[Dynamic Position]

I think the phrase, 'The neural processing technology has a two-way process for learning/teaching which sequential based processing systems cannot access at present,' is enough nonsense for me.

It will be interesting to hear an explanation as to why this thread shows up on a search in due course.

Hello Googlers. :

Django, it could well be nonsense but having said that can it be proved that that neural processing technology is inferior to sequential based processing systems?
I have puzzled over this for almost 17 years!
Neural processing technology is not new, it is just that sequential processing systems have been considered more effective at solving problems and development of one corrupted the (investment) chances of the other. On balanced consideration of the two processing technologies I do not agree and believe that the problems governments face today are due in part to historical decisions.
"The new challenge facing mankind" in a letter to The Times Newspaper from Sir Peter Smithers, September 23rd, 2003 gave a warning, yet despite the technology advance in 45 years it seems that his letter is true.
Perhaps the UK government did not have the answers when Sir Peter Smithers was in government and it appears that our government still does not have an answer (other than what Peter Smithers concludes).
I do not agree with Sir Peter Smithers, because I believe the government could make better decisions if they tried, in a similar way to how I learned that a Hopfield Network Pattern was not the best pattern for neural processing while studying Artificial Intelligence with the OU.

Django, if the technology ever gets a second chance, it will either run or sink.
Gordon Brown (or another prime minister) will have taken the time to learn about what neural processing technology can do (through simulated modelling). He decides on its potential and compatibility: If it is a success then Blair will have the authorisation required. If a change in government performance is perceived it will be noticed and more Google threads will be generated.

Anyway, what has this got to do with electric bicycles?

How else do you think I knew before flecc about the s-class Kalkhoff?

Neural process computing:

If Blair rides an s-class Kalkhoff, I want one too - providing I do not upset The chief Engineer who always gets the last say.

Flecc, you will have to check it out further and get back to me on the Scientology whiff. If you can disprove anything I have said i'd love to know.