Will the end of full speed throttles in January 2016 cause a rush to buy.

[Kudoscycles]

Except that the cycle industry is openly hostile to electric bikes,at the top of that list is UK Cycling ,who have an attitude to e-bikes which verges on snobbery... most electric bike shops aren't really interested in e-bikes,that is probably the biggest single reason why e-bikes are not more popular in the UK.
UK bike shops really don't want e-bikes,so e-bikes are primarily sold on the Internet or through specialist e-bike shops.
In Germany every bike shop will have maybe 30% e-bikes,they have a positive attitude to either vanilla or electric bikes.
Similarly the cycling media encompass both vanilla and electric bikes in the same title,offering reviews to both types but we in the UK have one low volume circulation devoted only to e-biking. I have offered electric bikes for testing to magazines such as Cycling Plus,they aren't interested....not proper cycling!!!
So we have a very unhealthy split in the UK ,which is stopping the distribution of electric bikes,stopping the growth and the result is that it is almost impossible to have e-bikes to test outside of major cities.
Raleigh make available their electric bikes to every dealer but speaking to the Raleigh sales guy at the NEC he said that most Raleigh dealers are openly against stocking e-bikes.
BEBA has been melded into an organisation which is not really interested in the progress of e-biking.
I did think about establishing a chain of e-bike shops across the UK but have realised that the sales volumes v the cost of running a shop in the UK do not add up,outside of London,which is why there is such a concentration of dedicated e-bike shops in London.
What is needed is not specialist e-bike shops but a number of e-bikes in every larger bike shop, but there is still a very anti attitude to electric bikes in most bike shops,who regard e-biking as 'not proper cycling'....why that attitude does not exist in Germany or Holland ???
KudosDave

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

The UK doesn't have vulnerable EAPC position:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=30&ved=0CFMQFjAJOBRqFQoTCI6FmbiiqMcCFSGO2wodL34AeA&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/436197/electrically-assisted-pedal-cycles.pdf&ei=C7bNVc7TE6Gc7gav_IHABw&usg=AFQjCNElfloW4OF4_BWo6e5vrDs95a4R5g&cad=rja

its only vulnerable when you try to push the industry into the realms of moped and motorbikes without regard to what we have already secured, you should have tried to secure the UK position on throttles, grown you market, and then pushed for what you perceive future customers want.

What do you think the growing number of eBikes being used on the UK roads with a throttle was doing?? Because it was / is very much pushing into the realms of moped and motobikes as far as the moped and motorbike retailers are concerned.

The push by the eBike industry to make 250w legal and bring us in line with Europe and be able to use most of the motors legally was always going to bring the throttle into play as a conflict. So the result we've got is as I've said before the best you could hope for. You can still use a throttle and it be classed as a pedelec in the eyes of the law.

What is needed is not specialist e-bike shops but a number of e-bikes in every larger bike shop, but there is still a very anti attitude to electric bikes in most bike shops,who regard e-biking as 'not proper cycling'....why that attitude does not exist in Germany or Holland ???
KudosDave

At the moment my perception is that the UK Cycle industry is warming to eBikes, and this is because the quality is better than last time they tried them. Big stores like Leisure Lakes and JE James are doing them now, we sell eBikes in most of our dealers now. Its only small numbers per store for 2015, but they can see they don't cause the problems they thought they would and the customers are less trouble than typical cycle customers.

There will be a race in each town over the next 12 - 24 months. Either the specialist eBike retailer has to get better (in some cases) at being a shop and not relying on the exclusivity of eBike knowledge but with no idea how to build a wheel or no stock of spares etc etc. Or the traditional bike shop will be building up its experience of eBike knowledge and will soon realise there is money in them there hills. Its happening already. Interesting times for sure.

 

[flecc]

the product (e-bike) is neither a bicycle or a moped/motorbike it lies directly between the two as a unique product all on its own

And therein lies the problem, you are saying it's not a bicycle.

It means you have accepted the EU decision that it is a unique intermediate class of power assisted vehicle. The class they've created for that is called L1e-A.

More accurately I think you are arguing that L1e-A should share the no-bureaucracy usage conditions of pedelecs, instead of having to be type approved, registered and used with a class Q driving licence and insurance etc.

In the UK that battle has already been substantially won surely? The DfT only wants the type approval for a throttle equipped pedelec, they don't require class Q driving licence, compulsory insurance, registration, number plate, VED recording.

I think that's a very generous position since it leaves buyers' usage unaffected, just the makers affected by needing to type approve to supply the market.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

What do you think the growing number of eBikes being used on the UK roads with a throttle was doing?? Because it was / is very much pushing into the realms of moped and motobikes as far as the moped and motorbike retailers are concerned.

The push by the eBike industry to make 250w legal and bring us in line with Europe and be able to use most of the motors legally was always going to bring the throttle into play as a conflict. So the result we've got is as I've said before the best you could hope for. You can still use a throttle and it be classed as a pedelec in the eyes of the law.



At the moment my perception is that the UK Cycle industry is warming to eBikes, and this is because the quality is better than last time they tried them. Big stores like Leisure Lakes and JE James are doing them now, we sell eBikes in most of our dealers now. Its only small numbers per store for 2015, but they can see they do cause the problems they thought they would and the customers are less trouble than typical cycle customers.

There will be a race in each town over the next 12 - 24 months. Either the specialist eBike retailer has to get better (in some cases) at being a shop and not relying on the exclusivity of eBike knowledge but with no idea how to build a wheel or no stock of spares etc etc. Or the traditional bike shop will be building up its experience of eBike knowledge and will soon realise there is money in them there hills. Its happening already. Interesting times for sure.

Colin .....I think you mean ' that they don't cause the problems that they thought'.....the major cycling shop in my home town is openly hostile to e-bikes,only stocking them because they have been pushed on them by their buying group.....every other bike shop in the town considers them not bicycles.
That is a city of 60,000 and typical of the attitudes of bike shops in provincial cities.
I spent some time in Memmingen in Bavaria,similar size town,every bike shop had at least a dozen e-bikes for demo and had a positive attitude to electric bikes.
Why do we still have such a negative attitude to these e-bikes in the cycling industry? Where did that attitude start from in the UK?
I have some friends who both have terrible knee arthritis,they love their cycling but climbing hills is now all but impossible for them. I have offered to loan them e-bikes to try but they have an in built anti attitude to e-bikes,they would prefer to push their bikes up every slight hill. I explain that they can vary the power to suit their condition and the terrain...but it is not 'proper cycling' in their eyes.
I think that if the media and the bike shops treated e-bikes and vanilla bikes all as bicycles then the stigma of e-bikes as 'cheating' would soon be overcome,I suppose the desire to have throttles on these bikes does alienate e-bikes from vanilla bikes,the need not to pedal seperates 'us' from 'them'
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

And therein lies the problem, you are saying it's not a bicycle.

It means you have accepted the EU decision that it is a unique intermediate class of power assisted vehicle. The class they've created for that is called L1e-A.

More accurately I think you are arguing that L1e-A should share the no-bureaucracy usage conditions of pedelecs, instead of having to be type approved, registered and used with a class Q driving licence and insurance etc.

In the UK that battle has already been substantially won surely? The DfT only wants the type approval for a throttle equipped pedelec, they don't require class Q driving licence, compulsory insurance, registration, number plate, VED recording.

I think that's a very generous position since it leaves buyers' usage unaffected, just the makers affected by needing to type approve to supply the market.
.

Has anyone tried to type approve an e-bike equipped with a throttle?
KudosDave

 

[trex]

I've researched EN15194 certificates on popular bikes a couple of years ago. None was issued in the UK. Ergo nobody has bothered with applying for the throttle until now.

 

[flecc]

there is still a very anti attitude to electric bikes in most bike shops,who regard e-biking as 'not proper cycling'....why that attitude does not exist in Germany or Holland ???
KudosDave

When I started in the trade in 1950, we were exactly like the current Dutch and German dealers. Our customers were all utility cyclists who's bike was usually their sole means of transport. We enthusiastically fitted ic assist motors for the many cyclists that wanted them and over a million on British roads ended up with those.

What happened then was that growing affluence resulted in them switching first to scooters and light motorbikes and then to cars, leaving very few cycling by the 1970s and much of the trade gone.

Cycling was then suddenly revived by the appearance of the Mountain Bike from 1979 on, which produced a boom in sales for sport biased fun/leisure use but in no way as transport.

And that's the way Britain's cycle trade has stayed, which is understandable when we consider that is what saved the trade and what has been such a good money spinner.

In Germany and The Netherlands, the effects of WW2 took much longer to recover from, so their relative poverty in the 1960s and '70s maintained a much higher level of utility cycling. This went beyond the mountain bike introduction which therefore had far less effect in those countries at the time. Indeed I don't think the Dutch even noticed their invention for a long time, so the trade remained what it always had been, servicing utility cycling's needs. And power assistance is one of those needs, just as it was for us in the British trade in the 1950s.
.

 

[flecc]

Has anyone tried to type approve an e-bike equipped with a throttle?
KudosDave

Apart from a couple of private successes with great difficulty, no.

It just isn't practical under the current Low Powered Moped class type approval's demanding requirements.

The new L1e-A type approval from 1st January 2017 appears to change that. If the machine is under 35 kilos, many of the requirements for that are conformity to the existing bicycle standards and the braking standards and equipment have been reduced to that commensurate with current bike equipment.
.

 

[robwalley]

1. Seems to be mostly an issue for manufacturers and retailers because...
2. In practice, how many times has any ebiker been stopped by plod for further inquiries in this area of the law?
3. One can put any fast ebike into moped status, just extra paperwork and cost.
4. Further down the line I assume cars will be restricted to 70mph
5. You go faster in the US, except in a car.

As age and condition affect me, I will be referring to d8veh golden rule.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Apart from a couple of private successes with great difficulty, no.

It just isn't practical under the current Low Powered Moped class type approval's demanding requirements.

The new L1e-A type approval from 1st January 2017 appears to change that. If the machine is under 35 kilos, many of the requirements for that are conformity to the existing bicycle standards and the braking standards and equipment have been reduced to that commensurate with current bike equipment.
.

Flecc.....so it looks like we are going to have a 'no mans land' situation between January 2016 and January 2017. In January 2016 we won't be able to sell an e-bike with full speed throttle unless it has type approval.
But that type approval won't be easy to get until January 2017.
If I read that correctly that is a ridiculous situation.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

1. Seems to be mostly an issue for manufacturers and retailers because...
2. In practice, how many times has any ebiker been stopped by plod for further inquiries in this area of the law?
3. One can put any fast ebike into moped status, just extra paperwork and cost.
4. Further down the line I assume cars will be restricted to 70mph
5. You go faster in the US, except in a car.

As age and condition affect me, I will be referring to d8veh golden rule.

You are quite correct that these regs are a problem for importers and sellers but that will have a 'knock-on' effect on those who desire throttles on their e-bikes. If the importers choose to not fit throttles then they won't be available. The reality of course is those who desire throttles will fit them retrospectively,even if that is illegal because the police are very unlikely to check. So the bike of desire will be the one to which a throttle can easily be affixed.
I see no reason why a throttle should not be fitted allowing legally up to 4 mph operation,if the customer chooses to increase this speed that is the customers choice. This is a similar situation that bikes with King Displays can be changed to increase the cutoff speed,the customer chooses in both cases whether to change the default setting and make the bike illegal.
KudosDave

 

[shambolic]

What about second hand sales , will it be illegal to sell a bike with a throttle secondhand? I ask because I really don't believe anyone will bother to type approve unless they are selling it for a grossly inflated price as a 'disability bike' or some other such excuse for trebling the price. Therefore my only chance of future purchase of a suitable E-bike that is legal is the secondhand market, is that still allowed?

Or alternatively, at what point in replacing parts for my Woosh Zephyr B does this bike become illegal for having a throttle. Would a new frame render it illegal, for instance?

 

[shemozzle999]

And therein lies the problem, you are saying it's not a bicycle.

It means you have accepted the EU decision that it is a unique intermediate class of power assisted vehicle. The class they've created for that is called L1e-A.

More accurately I think you are arguing that L1e-A should share the no-bureaucracy usage conditions of pedelecs, instead of having to be type approved, registered and used with a class Q driving licence and insurance etc.

In the UK that battle has already been substantially won surely? The DfT only wants the type approval for a throttle equipped pedelec, they don't require class Q driving licence, compulsory insurance, registration, number plate, VED recording.

I think that's a very generous position since it leaves buyers' usage unaffected, just the makers affected by needing to type approve to supply the market.
.

I thought I stated clearly in my post what I meant without the need for interpretation.

I'll have another go.

The UK definition of an EAPC exemption to be treated as a bicycle, albeit by omission, allows throttles and the interim harmonization did not change that and I can only assume that the DfT had no major concerns with the throttle situation as they as they are the only body with any access to any adverse data that would warrant its removal.
The information sheet I have linked to above explains their decision that as long as the pedals are fitted and can propel the bicycle the then throttle can be used. Thus they have defined a UK EAPC.

The industries argument for throttles to be included in the EU EPED exemption should have and still could be made to the Commission along the lines the that the vast majority of European citizens were being denied the use of a throttle as allowed by the UK member State which fulfills the treaty requirement of allowing elderly and disabled the right to enjoy the mobility freedoms and dignity of the abled bodied.

There is no need to fudge the L1e class as it has nothing to do with EPEDs.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Maybe... the DFT is just trying to stop home build bikes with throttles being legally used on the roads and they only want type approved throttle bikes allowed.

Just a thought

and this point I'm afraid is lost on me.

I thought I stated

The industries argument for throttles to be included in the EU EPED exemption should have and still could be made to the Commission along the lines the that the vast majority of European citizens were being denied the use of a throttle as allowed by the UK member State which fulfills the treaty requirement of allowing elderly and disabled the right to enjoy the mobility freedoms and dignity of the abled bodied.

No one is being denied the use of a throttle!!!! They can buy a moped, or they can buy a type assisted ebike that has a throttle.

There are many things in life that aren't allowed, regarding mobility.... that doesn't mean that the freedom and rights / dignity of the less able are being compromised. It just means there is some stuff no one is allowed to do!

 

[torrent99]

Or alternatively, at what point in replacing parts for my Woosh Zephyr B does this bike become illegal for having a throttle. Would a new frame render it illegal, for instance?

Yes this is an interesting question, even for type-approved throttle bikes. With an ordinary bike I can pretty much exchange parts with impunity (so long as they are quality parts), with a type-approved bike will I have to keep to the same manufacturers spec that underwent type approval?

 

[flecc]

Flecc.....so it looks like we are going to have a 'no mans land' situation between January 2016 and January 2017. In January 2016 we won't be able to sell an e-bike with full speed throttle unless it has type approval.
But that type approval won't be easy to get until January 2017.
If I read that correctly that is a ridiculous situation.
KudosDave

Yes, it is ridiculous and I've already commented on that previously, Ideally the EAPC amendment should have been delayed until the new type approval metod was available.

Meanwhile we'll have to depend on two things, firstly the period of grace to clear stock, secondly the fact that it's unlikely there's a police officer in the land who understands anything about this chaotic situation.
.

 

[flecc]

I thought I stated clearly in my post what I meant without the need for interpretation.

I'll have another go.

The UK definition of an EAPC exemption to be treated as a bicycle, albeit by omission, allows throttles and the interim harmonization did not change that and I can only assume that the DfT had no major concerns with the throttle situation as they as they are the only body with any access to any adverse data that would warrant its removal.
The information sheet I have linked to above explains their decision that as long as the pedals are fitted and can propel the bicycle the then throttle can be used. Thus they have defined a UK EAPC.

The industries argument for throttles to be included in the EU EPED exemption should have and still could be made to the Commission along the lines the that the vast majority of European citizens were being denied the use of a throttle as allowed by the UK member State which fulfills the treaty requirement of allowing elderly and disabled the right to enjoy the mobility freedoms and dignity of the abled bodied.

There is no need to fudge the L1e class as it has nothing to do with EPEDs.

i understood but my reply stands. As KTM has observed and I've posted a number of times, no-one is being prevented from having a full throttle since there are other options.

I understand the discrimination point that you make but cannot see it being accepted as valid by the EU, nor do I see it as valid. If someone is unable to ride a bicycle, they are also unable to ride a pedelec. These both result from their condition, not due to any discrimination.
,

 

[flecc]

Yes this is an interesting question, even for type-approved throttle bikes. With an ordinary bike I can pretty much exchange parts with impunity (so long as they are quality parts), with a type-approved bike will I have to keep to the same manufacturers spec that underwent type approval?

Basically yes, the replacement parts must meet the requirements. This isn't really different for bicycles though, for they are also made to statutory standards which should be preserved.

These are moot points though, as long as a bicycle or an e-bike works satisfactorily and safely, a user will not be troubled.
.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Basically yes, the replacement parts must meet the requirements. This isn't really different for bicyles though, for they are also made to statutory standards which should be preserved.

These are moot points though, as long as a bicycle or an e-bike works satisfactorily and safely, a user will not be troubled.
.

Who's going to be checking?

 

[flecc]

Who's going to be checking?

Probably nobody, but there is a chance of a superficial police check during a safety campaign of the sort we had last Autumn/Winter in London when some rider's bikes were examined.
.