Will the end of full speed throttles in January 2016 cause a rush to buy.

[Deleted member 4366]

That's a good point about the design speed. The design speed of say an Oxygen MTB is 25km/h. Derestricting it, doesn't change its design speed, so derestricting it doesn't change it into a moped.

 

[flecc]

All you're doing by asking to allow eBikes with throttles and more power is bypassing the laws and regulations around mopeds isn't it? Wrapping it up to look like you're "empowering riders" isn't really what it is, is it?

We aren't at odds on this, my wish for throttles is only in respect of those who are unable to always ride pedelec only through some minor physical impairment. The key phrase in my comment repeated below is "more riders", i.e. the physically impaired. The rest of us are already empowered with pedelec control.

I would love to see throttles allowed and even a bit more power so that more riders could be empowered

I can be content with pedelec only and think it sufficient for the majority who do have enough fitness to pedal all the time. It is cycling after all.
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[flecc]

Here's a possible spanner in the works regarding throttles.

1) As I've observed previously a torque sensor is a foot operated throttle over the whole permitted assist speed range and that's legal.

2) Those who cannot pedal a bicycle through some leg disability can ride hand operated bicycles legally, and these come in various forms, including with a hand cranked chainwheel ahead of the rider.

3) Arguably that hand cranked bike is being pedalled, so should be legal as a pedelec. Then if torque sensored it has a de facto hand-operated full range throttle.
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[KTM Bike Industries UK]

That's a good point about the design speed. The design speed of say an Oxygen MTB is 25km/h. Derestricting it, doesn't change its design speed, so derestricting it doesn't change it into a moped.

hmm, slightly the wrong way round there d8veh, even by your own definitiion.

The Oxygen has a design speed of ABOVE 25km/h and is then restricted to 25km/h... so by derestricted you're actually allowing it to do its design speed.

This is of course true of pretty much all pedelecs, but is an important point if you're going to pick on the phrase "design speed".

 

[trex]

Here's a possible spanner in the works regarding throttles.

1) As I've observed previously a torque sensor is a foot operated throttle over the whole permitted assist speed range and that's legal.

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there seems to be a natural separation of the market. People who like bikes with throttle naturally buy Chinese bikes and people who like bikes with torque sensor buy German CD bikes. Perhaps people who buy bikes with hub motors would rather have a throttle than a torque sensor.
As an example: Woosh now and then sell their Sport TS at a loss (£599) trying to attract adopters without much success. Perhaps they'll have better luck in the new year. Also, I don't think Kudos have had much luck with one of their bikes fitted with torque sensor. Perhaps AMPS are going to prove me wrong.

 

[torrent99]

2) Those who cannot pedal a bicycle through some leg disability can ride hand operated bicycles legally, and these come in various forms, including with a hand cranked chainwheel ahead of the rider.


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But throttles not only benefit those with leg disabilities. There's also those with limited energy.

Also leg disabilities often go hand in hand with other joint problems, generalised dodgy joints, which make hand operated pedals just as problematic. Dodgy shoulder or back anyone?

I don't think hand operated bikes (though useful for some), offer an alternative to throttle controlled ebikes.

The throttle controlled bike (with limited speed of 10/15mph) addresses a multitude of problems and provides a means of transport and recreation for a potentially very large number of people.

 

[oldtom]

But throttles not only benefit those with leg disabilities. There's also those with limited energy.

Also leg disabilities often go hand in hand with other joint problems, generalised dodgy joints, which make hand operated pedals just as problematic. Dodgy shoulder or back anyone?

I don't think hand operated bikes (though useful for some), offer an alternative to throttle controlled ebikes.

The throttle controlled bike (with limited speed of 10/15mph) addresses a multitude of problems and provides a means of transport and recreation for a potentially very large number of people.

Sorry torrent99, I don't understand what you mean. For a moment, I thought you were advocating that hand-operated throttles should be available to anyone who wants one but you make a distinction between hand-throttle and just 'throttle-controlled'.

I understand torque-sensoring as opposed to speed sensoring and believe some machines have both but I'm unsure about your distinction of throttle. I'm guessing now but do you mean lever-type throttles as opposed to the kind of rotational ones found on motorcycles and scooters?

Tom

 

[Deleted member 4366]

hmm, slightly the wrong way round there d8veh, even by your own definitiion.

The Oxygen has a design speed of ABOVE 25km/h and is then restricted to 25km/h... so by derestricted you're actually allowing it to do its design speed.

This is of course true of pretty much all pedelecs, but is an important point if you're going to pick on the phrase "design speed".

That's total ball cocks. Oxygen bikes are designed and certified to comply with EN15194, which is the standard for electrically asisted pedal cycles. If it were designed as a moped, there would be a bracket on the back for a number plate.

Are you saying that KTMs are designed as mopeds because they can also be derestricted.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

That's total ball cocks. Oxygen bikes are designed and certified to comply with EN15194, which is the standard for electrically asisted pedal cycles. If it were designed as a moped, there would be a bracket on the back for a number plate.

Are you saying that KTMs are designed as mopeds because they can also be derestricted.

Thats exactly what I'm saying! If the bike has to be RESTRICTED to 25kph, then its design speed is above 25kph by definition. So if you're going to use the design speed arguement, you'll find that pretty much all pedelecs are designed to go above 25kph and then restricted to the legal requirements to each country.

As I'm sure you'll know the Bosch 250w motor with 25kph cut off... is the identical motor to the Bosch 350w with 45kph cut off, its just restricted. So for all our Bosch bikes, yes the motors are designed as a moped and then restricted to make it a pedelec under the normal definitions.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The design incorporates a governing system to prevent power above 25km/h. Your argument is a bit like saying aircraft are designed to crash because if you switch off the control systems, they will fall out of the sky, or, boats are designed to sink because they have removable skin fittings.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

The design incorporates a governing system to prevent power above 25km/h. Your argument is a bit like saying aircraft are designed to crash because if you switch off the control systems, they will fall out of the sky, or, boats are designed to sink because they have removable skin fittings.

no... your argument was:

"The design speed of say an Oxygen MTB is 25km/h. Derestricting it, doesn't change its design speed, so derestricting it doesn't change it into a moped."

So all I'm saying is that... the Oxygen is restricted to 25km/h. The design speed has to be higher than that otherwise it wouldn't need restricting.

By definition, in order to derestrict something, it has to be first restricted.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

That's the same argument that aeroplanes are designed to crash otherwise they wouldn't need control systems. It's a fact that an aeroplane will crash without a control system, but it's not designed to crash. The control system is an integral part of the design, just like the control system in an Oxygen bike. Pilots can override the control system in an aeroplane just like bike riders can on their electric bike if they know how. No reasonable person would say that aeroplanes are designed to crash.

 

[torrent99]

That's the same argument that aeroplanes are designed to crash otherwise they wouldn't need control systems. It's a fact that an aeroplane will crash without a control system, but it's not designed to crash. The control system is an integral part of the design, just like the control system in an Oxygen bike. Pilots can override the control system in an aeroplane just like bike riders can on their electric bike if they know how. No reasonable person would say that aeroplanes are designed to crash.

You could also say that it's down to good old fashioned engineering tolerances/over engineering. Technically it's components are capable of more than 25kph, however restrictions are put in place to ensure that the components are not used to their maximum capacity. This provides good performance in the designed range, greater reliability, greater longevity etc etc.

 

[flecc]

You could also say that it's down to good old fashioned engineering tolerances/over engineering. Technically it's components are capable of more than 25kph, however restrictions are put in place to ensure that the components are not used to their maximum capacity. This provides good performance in the designed range, greater reliability, greater longevity etc etc.

And often higher efficiency too, when the restricted speed corresponds to the point of highest motor efficiency, as it often does.
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[OldBob1]

I wonder if our E-bike market is fit for purpose, what a missed opportunity! most times I go out on my little folder I end up talking to senior persons who are interested with my e-bike and the freedom it gives me,also the ones that have had a go on it, come back with a big smile and are sold on it mainly because the throttle allows them to assist in forward moment and is a nice back up if the body fails or is not 100%..
Also not all of us charge around at warp factor 9.

 

[shemozzle999]

I agree but unfortunately our UK dealers don't appear to be able to agree with each other on the direction of the independent electric bicycle market.

BEBA was absorbed into the BAGB, I considered this a bad move when it was announced.

It is associating itself with the purist cycle companies but the product is neither a bicycle or a moped/motorbike it lies directly between the two as a unique product all on its own and shouldn't be constrain by the pre-conceptual restraints of the other two markets it should develop its own market if it wants to progress itself and its customer base.

The motorcycle industry successfully broke away from the Bicycle Association and fight for their own ground,

I believe that is something the electric bicycle industry should consider if they could ever compromise on their own internal differences.

 

[Twangman]

Yes to me my bike is a Hybrid neither a cycle or a moped, its something inbtween. When it is powered by the use of throttle or sensor to me changes the definition of what it is. A bicycle is something that is human powered. Once you motorise it you change that.

 

[JohnCade]

Yes to me my bike is a Hybrid neither a cycle or a moped, its something inbtween. When it is powered by the use of throttle or sensor to me changes the definition of what it is. A bicycle is something that is human powered. Once you motorise it you change that.

Which brings us back to TS versus SS with throttle again. A torque sensor electrically assisted bicycle is human powered, and the motor works by multiplying the human input. A speed sensor bike works by just turning the cranks which then acts as a switch and gives full power. Or by operating the throttle. So by your definition a speed sensor machine with a throttle is not a bicycle at all.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I agree but unfortunately our UK dealers don't appear to be able to agree with each other on the direction of the independent electric bicycle market.

BEBA was absorbed into the BAGB, I considered this a bad move when it was announced.

It is associating itself with the purist cycle companies but the product is neither a bicycle or a moped/motorbike it lies directly between the two as a unique product all on its own and shouldn't be constrain by the pre-conceptual restraints of the other two markets it should develop its own market if it wants to progress itself and its customer base.

The motorcycle industry successfully broke away from the Bicycle Association and fight for their own ground,

I believe that is something the electric bicycle industry should consider if they could ever compromise on their own internal differences.

You'll never find total agreement within any trade body, as everyone always has a mix of common and individual business interests to consider.

However I would suggest that BEBA becoming part of the Bicycle Association is a good move, for pretty much everyone, and I was at the BEBA meeting when it was discussed and voted on. This is because its in the interests of pretty much everyone for eBikes to be considered as cycles, for A LOT of reasons.

Without the protection of the status as a pedal cycle the eBike industry would be a lot more vulnerable to attach via stricter legislation and restricted useage , pushed by the motor cycle industry and other lobby groups who don't think electric assist bicycles should be exempt from the laws that effect motorbikes.

So I'd suggest that its in your interests and all our interests for everyone to think of pedelecs as bicycles and use the current pedelec UK definition as the line in the sand where under these thresholds its simply considered a bicycle in the eyes of the law.

 

[shemozzle999]

The UK doesn't have vulnerable EAPC position:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=30&ved=0CFMQFjAJOBRqFQoTCI6FmbiiqMcCFSGO2wodL34AeA&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/436197/electrically-assisted-pedal-cycles.pdf&ei=C7bNVc7TE6Gc7gav_IHABw&usg=AFQjCNElfloW4OF4_BWo6e5vrDs95a4R5g&cad=rja

its only vulnerable when you try to push the industry into the realms of moped and motorbikes without regard to what we have already secured, you should have tried to secure the UK position on throttles, grown you market, and then pushed for what you perceive future customers want.