Why so few Ebikes

JohnCade

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May 16, 2014
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Britain is the nation state, and my nationality is and always has been British since I was born. You can think of yourself as a Northumbrian, or a west countryman, or Welsh or Scots or English, but it says British on the passport.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Because the government sometimes takes that view for such as passport convenience, but it remains technically incorrect. That's why official forms so often have Brit/Eng and the like on them, a way of wriggling out of the dilemma. A country is never made up of countries and only a country can be a nation. Our nationality is that of the country we are born in, English, Scottish or Welsh.

Even the government acknowledges what I say in a number of ways, have a look at this website. You'll note that of the six types of British nationality, none is expressly for people born in the three integral nations, British being mainly defined as a nationality for people born in certain other countries. That is because the nationality of those born in Britain is what I've said it is, English, Scottish or Welsh.

And as I've remarked, if Scotland votes to leave the union, Britain will no longer factually exist, though no doubt the government will insist it does for convenience, against the evidence as usual.
 
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neptune

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Jan 30, 2012
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Perhaps, in some locations, we need a shop that concentrates on utility cycling. In other words they would sell, e bikes and commuter bikes mainly, with the odd sports bike thrown in.
 
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JohnCade

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May 16, 2014
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Because the government sometimes takes that view for such as passport convenience, but it remains technically incorrect. That's why official forms so often have Brit/Eng and the like on them, a way of wriggling out of the dilemma. A country is never made up of countries and only a country can be a nation. Our nationality is that of the country we are born in, English, Scottish or Welsh.

Even the government acknowledges what I say in a number of ways, have a look at this website. You'll note that of the six types of British nationality, none is expressly for people born in the three integral nations, British being mainly defined as a nationality for people born in certain other countries. That is because the nationality of those born in Britain is what I've said it is, English, Scottish or Welsh.

And as I've remarked, if Scotland votes to leave the union, Britain will no longer factually exist, though no doubt the government will insist it does for convenience, against the evidence as usual.
That website is mainly for people wishing to take out British nationality, and there are now several categories of British nationality which were introduced to stop a post colonial influx of peoples who until those changes were all British subjects and able to settle here. For census purposes we are now asked how we see ourselves, but in legal terms we remain British subjects; and not even citizens incidentally.

So I am simply stating the facts as they are now. Not as they might be in the event of a schism in the UK which led to an independent Scotland. Like it or not your nationality at the moment is British which is what it says on your passport. If Scotland became independent and if you are Scottish you would presumably take out a Scottish passport, and then your legal nationality would have changed.

The citizens/subjects - and that definition has to be brought into the modern world - of the UK successor state could not be British anymore either and would need another nationality on their passports since that nation would no longer exist. Britain or Great Britain, was largely the invention of a Scottish king who when he came to the throne of England wanted to unite his realm. But both his English and Scottish subjects resisted him so the name was more or less in abeyance until circumstances brought about the Act of Union a hundred years later.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Yes, John, that is the government's definition as I've acknowledged, but that doesn't stop it being an incorrect ruling. Scots and Welsh almost universally describe themselves as such, just as almost all the native white population of England describe themselves as English. Technically they are right for these three are nations, and it's been noted that large numbers cross out references to British on the national census forms. For Britain to be truly a country and British a nationality, England, Wales and Scotland would have to have been demoted to states. They weren't, and of course you've acknowledged the shaky status of Britain and the newer Great Britain in your last paragraph.

As the government have acknowledged, the term British is mainly used by first to third generation immigrants. Adopting British for all the citizens is just a convenience to try to cover for the mess that is the structure of these islands.

As an example of what I mean, look at how wrong our governments have been over the status of Wales. It's said to be a country and a principality, but that is impossible. One assumes it is a principality due to the existence of a Prince of Wales, but a principality is a part of a country ruled by a prince, and in the case of Wales that country is England. It follows that as a part of England (which it was once ruled to be) it cannot also be a country. Of course when Wales was first declared a country, the government of the day should have removed the status of principality and the title of Prince of Wales, but as usual got it wrong instead.

And as for the status of Northern Ireland, that according to the government is a province, even more confusion and a further title!

These messes are what happens when the time honoured rules are ignored and replaced by expediency, but fortunately most of our population ignore the government and specify themselves correctly. And in recognition of the factual status of the nations of England, Wales and Scotland, even the government acknowledges and supports those national teams in the international sporting arena. There are no British teams in the coming football world cup for example, since there is in truth no British nation to compete. The UN appears to act similarly, ignoring all the UK governments' title rules and just referring to the UK as a sovereign state.
 

JohnCade

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May 16, 2014
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The inconsistencies you outline are just the product of a state which has no formal constitution and which just grew organically. It's only in recent years that some English people have started to think of themselves like that too. Very largely as a reaction to Scottish identity politics, as in 'if they want to wave the Saltire then we can wave the St George Cross.'

But as I said, that is not really my point, which is that British is the legal nationality of people born in the UK as it stands now.

Actually Wales is slightly different in that its legal system is integrated with England's, and it was colonised by the Normans who had first colonised the English, and finally conquered by a post Norman king. While Scotland remained an independent nation despite the efforts of that king who died before he could finish the job.

I think, and thought at the time, that devolution as proposed would inevitably result in the breakup of the union, and it will probably happen at some point if not this year. In reality it was home rule for Scotland with Wales tagged on as an afterthought. That arrangement given the vast differences in population sizes made no sense at all and was a hangover of the failed 79 Scottish referendum which the newly elected Labour government with its heartland then in Scotland thought of as unfinished business.

The German federal system with its more balanced populations within devolved regions and nations would have been a much better model. The English regions could have been based on the old kingdoms of England incidentally which were independent nations before the kingdom of Alba was created, and that way a stable federal and lasting UK could have been forged.
 
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flecc

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I absolutely agree with the conclusions of your last two paragraphs John, we could certainly have done things much better.

While it's true that the oft seen waving of the St Georges flag is a fairly recent phenomenon, the use of the three identities as nationality preceded the formation of Great Britain and has continued ever since. As an obviously well-read person you will know that in Georgian, Victorian and Edwardian times an Englishman called himself English, and rarely if ever British. I see this as lasting and growing since all the indicators are that it's increasing and we are now far from alone in the world in rebelling against imposed block identities.

As for the legal status, Lord Hailsham was right, any law not supported by 80% of the population is bad law, and it's self evident that the governments' rules on nationality are bad law on that measure. Like the majority of our population I will continue to use the technically correct nationality, in my case English, refusing to acknowledge British. As you've said, the breakup of the union will probably happen at some time, making the identity of British even more hypothetical than it is already.
 
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peerjay56

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May 24, 2013
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Being neither a political or history student, I'd just like to say that this has been an interesting diversion from the original topic of this post;). I believe myself to be a Mercian, now resident in Rheged (I thinko_O)
 
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neptune

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Jan 30, 2012
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Jokes have been made about home rule for Yorkshire. However, when you look at some facts, the joke is not so funny. The Cornish have been recognised as a separate ethnic minority by the EU. Yorkshire has as many people as Scotland, and twice as many as Wales. Roll on independence for Yorkshire, as when that happens, the second largest county, Lincolnshire, will have a case. As a member of an ethnic minority in my own town[I am English] this may or may not be a good thing.
 
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peerjay56

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May 24, 2013
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Pre Yorkshire days, it appears that the part of Yorkshire I live in formed part of the old Briton territory of Rheged, or possibly Argoed (Southern Rheged). With a western flow to our local rivers, and hills such as Gragareth and Pen-y-ghent, that probably means that we should really be part of Lancashire - but don't tell any Yorkshireman that I said that:eek:
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Pre Yorkshire days, it appears that the part of Yorkshire I live in formed part of the old Briton territory of Rheged, or possibly Argoed (Southern Rheged). With a western flow to our local rivers, and hills such as Gragareth and Pen-y-ghent, that probably means that we should really be part of Lancashire - but don't tell any Yorkshireman that I said that:eek:
The historic fact i really like, and which could upset many, dates from Roman times. They drew a line across from roughly the Mersey to the Wash. South of that line they called Britannia Superior, north of that line up to the Scottish border they called Britannia Inferior. :)
 

peerjay56

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May 24, 2013
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Nr Ingleton, N. Yorkshire
The historic fact i really like, and which could upset many, dates from Roman times. They drew a line across from roughly the Mersey to the Wash. South of that line they called Britannia Superior, north of that line up to the Scottish border they called Britannia Inferior. :)
I've put my tin hat on - just adding a few more sandbags around the cellar entrance:eek:
 
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flecc

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I've put my tin hat on - just adding a few more sandbags around the cellar entrance:eek:
No need to get upset though, their reason for that naming is not immediately apparent.

The local leaders in the south soon twigged that co-operating with the Romans brought benefits like grand stone houses and land, while in the north they were much more stroppy and less inclined to co-operate.

The outcome was that the south not only got better development but also had a much reduced Roman army. The bulk of the army was in the north to keep order, so the names reflected the level of difficulty of running each, not an innate reflection on the areas or peoples.
 

peerjay56

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May 24, 2013
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No need to get upset though, their reason for that naming is not immediately apparent.

The local leaders in the south soon twigged that co-operating with the Romans brought benefits like grand stone houses and land, while in the north they were much more stroppy and less inclined to co-operate.

The outcome was that the south not only got better development but also had a much reduced Roman army. The bulk of the army was in the north to keep order, so the names reflected the level of difficulty of running each, not an innate reflection on the areas or peoples.
I'm not upset Flecc, I'm from Britannia Superior, living in B I. I'm preparing for the locals to get rowdy...
 
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Dubster

Pedelecer
Jul 9, 2012
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That's generally my experience re shops in York - "England's 2nd cycling city" (so we keep getting reminded as the Tour rapidly approaches) Although there are one or two who sell commuters, often they are overpriced (in my opinion) Dutch bikes. All of them have racers/mountain bikes as their main stock.

I went into a fairly large York shop recently for some lube. The assistant was a young guy dressed in full lycra gear. He thought he was it. Asked him why he didn't have any ebikes amongst his extensive stock - his opening response was "have you ever seen an old ebike?" He then tried to convince me that they would be too much trouble, so they wouldn't stock them.

What exactly is a "cycling city" anyway?...
I know of three cycle shops in York who stock e-bikes, one of them is exclusively e-bikes. My own previous e-bike came from a York shop - Fulford Cycles. My firm has on office in Acomb on the outskirts of York, I regularly see e-bikes on the roads there. I live in Selby, about 15 miles south of York, I'm aware of at least 6 other e-bike riders in the area, and they are only the ones that I happen to see on a regular basis, there may be more :)
 

John F

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Sep 3, 2013
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I know of three cycle shops in York who stock e-bikes, one of them is exclusively e-bikes. My own previous e-bike came from a York shop - Fulford Cycles. My firm has on office in Acomb on the outskirts of York, I regularly see e-bikes on the roads there. I live in Selby, about 15 miles south of York, I'm aware of at least 6 other e-bike riders in the area, and they are only the ones that I happen to see on a regular basis, there may be more :)
Well I live near Acomb, and can't remember the last time I saw an ebike around! I regularly go into the city centre, and often check out out the many cycle parks. It's quite rare to see even one out of hundreds
 

Dubster

Pedelecer
Jul 9, 2012
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North Yorkshire
Well I live near Acomb, and can't remember the last time I saw an ebike around! I regularly go into the city centre, and often check out out the many cycle parks. It's quite rare to see even one out of hundreds
Our office is on York Road (directly opposite the Halifax branch) you'll know the shopping precinct there? I regularly see a PowerByke and a Giant e-bike parked up, I presume the owners are visiting the shops.
 

John F

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 3, 2013
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Our office is on York Road (directly opposite the Halifax branch) you'll know the shopping precinct there? I regularly see a PowerByke and a Giant e-bike parked up, I presume the owners are visiting the shops.
Know it well, though not my sort of shopping area! You're right I do recall a Powerbyke (is that one of those old lead battery jobs?)

I'm more familiar with the town centre, and you may see one on a good day.
 
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Dubster

Pedelecer
Jul 9, 2012
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North Yorkshire
Know it well, though not my sort of shopping area! You're right I do recall a Powerbyke (is that one of those old lead battery jobs?)

I'm more familiar with the town centre, and you may see one on a good day.
Unfortunately I don't get to visit the Acomb office that often, even though it is the closest to home. We have 8 offices across Yorkshire, so I'm usually working somewhere in deepest West Yorkshire.

I regularly cycle into central York on a weekend, as the Selby to York cycle path is one of my favourite rides :)
 

axolotl

Pedelecer
May 8, 2014
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The message that we don't seem to get over to the public is that electric bikes are really a competitor to the car or bus,not a competitor to sports cycling.
I suspect the British public just isn't very receptive to that message.

It's almost as if cycling is only acceptable if it's *not* seen as a method of transport. The huge surge in cycling over the last decade or two hasn't be the result of people deserting their cars - half of the time their bike is on top of a car...! It's been for the "acceptable" justification of sport.

The same kind of thing is true of walking. If you're walking through a national park at the weekend, that's fine. If you're walking to work, you've either lost your driving licence of you belong to one of the lower orders.

The attitude is perhaps best summed up in the quote,* "Anybody seen in a bus over the age of 30 has been a failure in life". Likewise, if you're cycling for any reason other than sport, it must be because you can't afford a car. This is the attitude you've got to overcome: for a lot of people, there is no competitor to the car.


* I want to say this quote came from Thatcher, but I suspect it was misattributed.
 
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