February 15, 200818 yr Is it just me but i would much prefer a lightweight non asssisted bicycle,if it were not for the hills,some people seem to be making excuses for expensive electric bikes, not being able to do what they have been purchased for,or not meeting advertised expectations,only one german maker seems to be supplying any quality at the moment,with a panasonic motor, i think flecc once said he now preffered modern hub motors. has there been a change of heart?
February 15, 200818 yr Hills Is it just me but i would much prefer a lightweight non asssisted bicycle,if it were not for the hills? know what you're getting at, but is not assisted cycling a different experience ? the lightweight bike being the attempt to enjoy the minimum amount of machinery between personal strength and road, and the electric being the armchair version of cycling, as you say... it is the hills that make the difference
February 15, 200818 yr as you say... it is the hills that make the difference Do you know, I'm inclined to think that it isn't the hills but the headwinds. Hills do sometimes come to an end!!
February 15, 200818 yr For me, its a combination of headwinds, hills, extra speed on the flat, etc. On a long journey its knowing that I can complete it in a given time, and not have to allow for stopping to rest or pushing it up a long hill. On a short journey its just fun, and an extra choice of how to do it. Nick
February 15, 200818 yr For me it is very simply the ability to decide when I want to be lazy and when I want to put some effort in. That can change by the minute or by the day. Cheers, Django
February 15, 200818 yr I'm a well trained cyclist (9000km last year) and I got an e-bike for my daily commute (20km one way) to work. What is the difference with my race bike? Well on my e-bike I have the feeling of having the wind always in the back or sitting in a large group well hidden from the wind. I don’t have to shower arriving at work. Its as fast as with my car and my investment will be paid off in 6 months. On cost my e-bike is half of the price of my race bike. Jo
February 15, 200818 yr I was out yesterday on a non-assisted bike and it was a real pleasure to ride something so light and responsive with much better gears and brakes than I am used to. BUT it was a still day and I drove the bike by car to the one flattish area available to me. Hills and headwinds soon remind me why I am committed to electric bikes. ( How is it that I can ride a roughly circular route with a headwind all the way? ) Role on the day when we can confidently buy lightweight, reliable, and affordable electric bikes.
February 15, 200818 yr only one german maker seems to be supplying any quality at the moment,with a panasonic motor, i think flecc once said he now prefered modern hub motors. has there been a change of heart? Although I'd ridden earlier e-bikes before, in fact I started on e-bike ownership with a Panasonic motored Lafree Twist for towing a trailer in my hilly area, remaining with the unassisted bike for another year. However, at 67 I got lazy and started riding the Twist all the time once I'd fitted a hub gear with a better range. As for the choice, it's horses for courses. For leisure cycling I prefer the Panasonic motored bikes since they are far more pleasant to cycle than hub motor bikes, being almost indistinguishable from a normal bike due to the ability to switch the motor right off at the handlebars while riding and the resulting lack of rolling resistance. This would certainly suit your preferences. For utility cycling I prefer my hub motor bike, or anything as powerful and adaptable. Then theres a combination of speed and power that makes light of large pannier loads or trailer hauling, even when I don't want to bother with pedalling all the time. There are other advantages too. In the dense urban traffic and confined spaces where my utility riding is done, a tricky very low speed manoeuvre is made easier when it can be done with throttle only, especially when getting pedals past something jutting out or sticking up from the road surface when pedalling would cause problems. That said, there are only a very few hub motor bikes I would consider buying, and most I dislike because of their noise. .
February 15, 200818 yr Role on the day when we can confidently buy lightweight, reliable, and affordable electric bikes. What weight would you consider be lightweight for a hub motored electric bike considering a standard NON elecric road bike comes out about 21kg? Please take into account battery, electrics and motor wheel. Again what price would you consider as affordable? Just a little market research here! Regards FrankC Powabyke Ltd
February 15, 200818 yr What weight would you consider be lightweight for a hub motored electric bike considering a standard NON elecric road bike comes out about 21kg? Please take into account battery, electrics and motor wheel. Again what price would you consider as affordable? Just a little market research here! Regards FrankC Powabyke Ltd A standard non electric bike(whatever that is) would be much less than 21kg, more like 16kg I reckon. I don't have much experience of electric bikes but would say maximum weight for a good quality one should be around 28kg. Martin
February 15, 200818 yr a standard NON elecric road bike comes out about 21kg Really? That seems a bit heavy to me Frank? My bog standard hardtail aluminium frame MTB (at least 10yrs old) weighs only about 15kg and even thats heavy compared to an ~11kg Boardman Comp road bike a friend bought to add an electric kit to: his bike must be ~20-21kg tops including the powerful hub motor and 36V NiMH battery! When the kalkhoff Agattu was first announced and the 20.8kg weight was (incorrectly as it transpired) thought to include a 2.2kg 26V 10Ah lithium battery, that was considered a good weight reduction, and the Wisper bikes seem to be rather light too, though how much is due to less accessories I'm not sure, and with flecc's T-bike & in other cases its been shown that bikes' weight can be reduced significantly by judicious weight loss - of the bikes parts! Stuart.
February 15, 200818 yr Apologies, standard weights tend to be around 15-17kg NOT 21kg! Not sure where I got that figure from, anyway would would you all consider being a reasonable weight?
February 15, 200818 yr For me Electric means the freedom to cycle to work without arriving in a sweaty mess. As a fat git it has also allowed me to get some movement into my body without killing myself. I am surprised by how much healthier I feel and by how fast my fitness is improving. In analysig the cost compared to what might of happened if I remained a couch potato - Its peanuts. That said, when I buy the new agattu the peanuts will be starting to add up Paul
February 15, 200818 yr The standard bikes I used to ride were around 14 to 15 kilos, and I liked the Lafree Twist's 22 kilos when I first bought an e-bike. More important though is that bike should be free rolling when cycling without power, and I'd rather have a free rolling 26 kilo one than a sluggish 22 kilo one. 27 kilos is as much as I would ever want an e-bike to weigh, influenced by the steep hills around me, but I doubt if I'd worry about the weight in a flat area. But as I always say, the best way to reduce a bike's weight is for the rider to reduce what they eat. .
February 15, 200818 yr But as I always say, the best way to reduce a bike's weight is for the rider to reduce what they eat. . Very true. I am about 8 kilos overweight, which I suppose is like carrying 2 SLA batteries around with me:( Martin
February 15, 200818 yr I agree that weight is less of an issue than free-rolling, especially in my area which has relatively cycle-friendly gradients : the only time bike weight becomes an issue (other than for improved handling) is when lifting over/around obstacles e.g. on cycle paths, but thats an all too regular occurrence on most of them where measures to prevent access to motorbikes etc. make it awkward for bikes to use them either. At those times I'd like the bike to weigh as little as possible . Modern road bikes around £400-500 can weigh 10-11kg, but I suppose to be strong enough for a heavy motor & battery, and maybe steel forks etc. the frame weight for an ebike might need to be more? Then total weight also depends on motor size/power and battery type/capacity which could amount to anywhere between about 4 or 5kg to 10kg depending, so there's bound to be variation: anywhere from 15kg upwards to nearer 25kg seems possible, so as always there's so many factors to consider in the question - range of the ebike comes into the weight, as does rider fitness since a fitter rider needs less motor support, but then hilliness of terrain comes into it too... Makes you think that custom made/designed electric bikes (which flecc has always said, aswell as practiced, I believe ) is an entirely reasonable idea doesn't it?! Stuart.
February 15, 200818 yr What price would you all consider to be affordable? Weight doesn't seem to be as much as an issue as I once thought. 25-27kg seems (so far from the replies) to be an acceptable weight.
February 15, 200818 yr What price would you all consider to be affordable? Market research Frank? Remember this audience is mainly people who have already bought, rather than prospective buyers. There's always going to be those who think £100 is expensive, and those who think paying £1500 instead of £1200 is good if it gets them something noticeably better. One view is that if a bike costs £100 to £400 and a kit costs £250-£400 then a complete electric bike for less than £350 is bound to be rubbish, but anything over £800 has to be something special. Another view is that the difference between a good system and a bad system could be £300 a year running cost, so the difference between the purchase price of the good and bad systems could be, say, five times that or £1500. £2000 would be acceptable for top of the range- but it would have to be special. A high speed, good handling, long range, stealth e-bike, with built in security and a lifetime battery guarantee. Oh, and it folds up to go in my private jet. Nick
February 15, 200818 yr 25-27kg seems (so far from the replies) to be an acceptable weight. An acceptable absolute maximum weight, perhaps, Frank. 20-22kg would be very good, for a powerful bike, and 15-20kg for a light-assist bike, mainly for flat areas or very strong riders perhaps. Cost commensurate with quality of the product, even the actual costs as they would be now without the rip-off Britain costs added. In fact, I'll just have a panasonic titanium flat road eb please - don't know what it weighs, but I bet its quite light for an electric! Price? Stuart. Edited February 15, 200818 yr by coops
February 15, 200818 yr My UM36 is around 21-22kg, my previous two (normal) bikes were quite heavy so going up to the weight of the UM36 wasn't so bad and I only really feel that weight when I need to push it uphill (but I can use the throttle to make it push it's own weight) or have to carry it up/down steps, loaded panniers doesn't help when carrying it but then I rarely need to carry it. Price wise I was originally looking to spend £600-£700 but knew that like everything else half-decent I buy I would have to spend more or else I'd just be sitting there wishing I'd spent the extra for something better, I ended up paying £900 for my UM36. Still very pleased with it and ride it literally daily.
February 15, 200818 yr What price would you all consider to be affordable? Weight doesn't seem to be as much as an issue as I once thought. 25-27kg seems (so far from the replies) to be an acceptable weight. Hello Frank. A Giant SCR sports bike weighs 9.8kg, their CRS 'hybrid' bikes (a mountain bike style with road tyres) is 12kg. My Giant Suede is 26.5kg incl. battery and I believe that most Powabykes are somewhat heavier. I don't consider 25-27kg to be acceptable and I think that manufacturers should be aiming to get it much lower. I take the point about rolling resistance but in my experience a bike is much more enjoyable to ride if it is light and responsive, irrespective of the weight of the rider. Light weight also helps general handling of the bike in and out of sheds or parking places etc. If a degree of strengthening was added to the likes of a CRS, plus the weight of a battery, I would have thought we should be aiming at less than 20kg in the near future, improving on that in time. With regard to price, the PowaCycle Salisbury at £500 or less (and 22kg incl. lithium battery) seems to be a baseline. Not having ridden one I can only go off test reports and, as an electric bike convert, I would be willing to pay another £200 or so for lighter weight version with higher quality parts and control system. I think the availability of decent electric bikes at not too daunting a price is important in encouraging people to take the plunge. They may well move on to a 'luxury' bike later if that is what appeals to them. In addition to 'lightweight' and 'affordable' I would add 'reliable' in the sense that I think that many of us are being put off by battery and supply issues. When buying an electric bike, like other goods, I want a product that is available, has a style and function that suits my purpose, that I can be reasonably confident will perform for a fair length of time, and that the supplier/manufacturer will be there to offer service and parts if required. In other words, a more mature market than it is now. Can you do all that for next month please?
February 15, 200818 yr How much? Now there's a question. How long is a piece of string. £499 to £999 ia where the main market should be aiming, and the trend to a number at well over £1000 through to £1600 is having an offputting effect I think. There's room for those, but people entering the market shouldn't have to confront those prices immediately they say they want good hill climbing. That suggested range should include something with some power at £499, rather than just the very low powered Powacycles. .
February 15, 200818 yr Author There is also the question of style,although some mid range priced bikes perform quite well, for example ezee liv and powabyke models, they are not something i would like to be seen riding.
February 16, 200818 yr Is this more the style you're after? Its certainly light: Panasonic Titanium flat road EB - more images and some more details Weight 15.7kg with 26V 5Ah battery or 1.1kg more for 10Ah, top speed 24km/h it seems so I'm not sure if its the same Panasonic motor as the Kalkhoff or Biketecs, or maybe its just geared lower? The text in some of the reports of the new bike are very misleading - A racing type bicycle which has enough juice to help you cover a distance of 10km in an average time of 30 minutes sounds like it has a range of 10km, which it doesn't - the battery is either same or half capacity of the other panasonic bikes so should give similar or better range, though the 56-76km (~33-45miles) for the smaller 1.4kg 5Ah battery and double that for the larger 2.5kg 10Ah battery (same size as the Agattu battery), so 66-90miles, seem optimistically high?! Some other sites report that it will do 10km in 30 mins on a full charge, without you having to pedal!... Why do they bother reporting these stories if they haven't got the facts right? Still not found a price though... Stuart. Edited February 16, 200818 yr by coops
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