Why electic

[Haku]

My UM36 is around 21-22kg, my previous two (normal) bikes were quite heavy so going up to the weight of the UM36 wasn't so bad and I only really feel that weight when I need to push it uphill (but I can use the throttle to make it push it's own weight) or have to carry it up/down steps, loaded panniers doesn't help when carrying it but then I rarely need to carry it.

Price wise I was originally looking to spend £600-£700 but knew that like everything else half-decent I buy I would have to spend more or else I'd just be sitting there wishing I'd spent the extra for something better, I ended up paying £900 for my UM36. Still very pleased with it and ride it literally daily.

 

[Bikerbob]

What price would you all consider to be affordable?

Weight doesn't seem to be as much as an issue as I once thought. 25-27kg seems (so far from the replies) to be an acceptable weight.

Hello Frank. A Giant SCR sports bike weighs 9.8kg, their CRS 'hybrid' bikes (a mountain bike style with road tyres) is 12kg. My Giant Suede is 26.5kg incl. battery and I believe that most Powabykes are somewhat heavier. I don't consider 25-27kg to be acceptable and I think that manufacturers should be aiming to get it much lower. I take the point about rolling resistance but in my experience a bike is much more enjoyable to ride if it is light and responsive, irrespective of the weight of the rider. Light weight also helps general handling of the bike in and out of sheds or parking places etc. If a degree of strengthening was added to the likes of a CRS, plus the weight of a battery, I would have thought we should be aiming at less than 20kg in the near future, improving on that in time.

With regard to price, the PowaCycle Salisbury at £500 or less (and 22kg incl. lithium battery) seems to be a baseline. Not having ridden one I can only go off test reports and, as an electric bike convert, I would be willing to pay another £200 or so for lighter weight version with higher quality parts and control system. I think the availability of decent electric bikes at not too daunting a price is important in encouraging people to take the plunge. They may well move on to a 'luxury' bike later if that is what appeals to them.

In addition to 'lightweight' and 'affordable' I would add 'reliable' in the sense that I think that many of us are being put off by battery and supply issues. When buying an electric bike, like other goods, I want a product that is available, has a style and function that suits my purpose, that I can be reasonably confident will perform for a fair length of time, and that the supplier/manufacturer will be there to offer service and parts if required. In other words, a more mature market than it is now. Can you do all that for next month please?

 

[flecc]

How much? Now there's a question.

How long is a piece of string.

£499 to £999 ia where the main market should be aiming, and the trend to a number at well over £1000 through to £1600 is having an offputting effect I think. There's room for those, but people entering the market shouldn't have to confront those prices immediately they say they want good hill climbing.

That suggested range should include something with some power at £499, rather than just the very low powered Powacycles.
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[fishingpaul]

There is also the question of style,although some mid range priced bikes perform quite well, for example ezee liv and powabyke models, they are not something i would like to be seen riding.

 

[coops]

Is this more the style you're after? Its certainly light:

Panasonic Titanium flat road EB - more images and some more details

Weight 15.7kg with 26V 5Ah battery or 1.1kg more for 10Ah, top speed 24km/h it seems so I'm not sure if its the same Panasonic motor as the Kalkhoff or Biketecs, or maybe its just geared lower?

The text in some of the reports of the new bike are very misleading -

A racing type bicycle which has enough juice to help you cover a distance of 10km in an average time of 30 minutes

sounds like it has a range of 10km, which it doesn't - the battery is either same or half capacity of the other panasonic bikes so should give similar or better range, though the 56-76km (~33-45miles) for the smaller 1.4kg 5Ah battery and double that for the larger 2.5kg 10Ah battery (same size as the Agattu battery), so 66-90miles, seem optimistically high?!

Some other sites report that it will do 10km in 30 mins on a full charge, without you having to pedal!... Why do they bother reporting these stories if they haven't got the facts right?

Still not found a price though...

Stuart.

 

[mk1]

Panasonic Titanium flat road EB - more images and some more details

Weight 15.7kg with 26V 5Ah battery or 1.1kg more for 10Ah, top speed 24km/h it seems so I'm not sure if its the same Panasonic motor as the Kalkhoff or Biketecs, or maybe its just geared lower?

Some other sites report that it will do 10km in 30 mins on a full charge, without you having to pedal!... Why do they bother reporting these stories if they haven't got the facts right?

Still not found a price though...

Stuart.

10km in 30 minutes is nothing to shout about, maybe something has been lost in translation. Why did they use such fat titanium tubes? Smaller diameter tubing would give a much better ride surely.

Apparently it has a wingspan of 570mm which would make it very unstable in flight.

Martin

 

[Ian]

though the 56-76km (~33-45miles) for the smaller 1.4kg 5Ah battery and double that for the larger 2.5kg 10Ah battery (same size as the Agattu battery), so 66-90miles, seem optimistically high?!

I think the Japanese pedelec regulations only permit a 1:1 assist factor so range may well be high with such a low level of assist.

Not sure about the report of not pedaling though, I didn't think the Japanese allowed that, and the Panasonic unit we know certainly doesn't support it.
As you say Stuart, why bother to report it if they can't get it right.

 

[flecc]

These motor systems aren't suitable for an out and out sport bike anyway, since they are based on the power only being available at low cadences that a sport rider would deem laughable. They need to operate with power assist in the 70 to 90 cadence range at the very least to appeal to sport and club riders, not the 30 to 60 utility bike range they do at present.

I'm certain this will be the same, since it's recognisably the same unit, and as Ian says, is bound by Japanese law anyway.

There are a few international standard Japanese race cyclists, but they are very much at odds with Japan's cycling culture with it's enforced very low speeds and shared pavements everywhere.
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[coops]

Yes, I'd forgotten abut the cadence-assist issue, and I agree with Ian & Martin too.

I wonder if its called 'flat road' because the idea is to just 'flatten out' any gradients or hills with power assist, and most of the time on the flat you just ride like a normal bike? That might also account for the given long ranges per charge, like when you rode the Agattu similarly flecc? I wondered what determined the two different mileages per charge in the specs - probably standard/economy mode?

The bike does have an identity crisis, since it seems to be being promoted as a sports bike, but the cadence thing, chunky tubing & high crank posistion go against that: it would be a shame though if the speed of cadence for assist couldn't be increased for some with this system, since on the right bike I think it could work very well?

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

It would need major redesign for the cadence with power applied to be at least doubled, and that would probably spoil it anyway. The problem is that the complex way in which rider effort is measured by the pedelec unit almost certainly wouldn't work well at higher revolutions, and may not work at all. It was designed as a utility concept and is likely to stay that way. One work around would be to have a separate pedal shaft geared to the motor pedal shaft so the rider shaft had the doubled speed, but I can't see Panasonic doing anything major to the crankcase like this for such a tiny market.

Regarding this bike's design, with cyclists banned from the roads in Japanese cities and riding on the shared pavement subject to enforced very low speed limits, it's inevitable that it will be a style statement rather than a serious sport bike.
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[coops]

Shame, because I do prefer a higher cadence when I ride - seems to reduce fatigue.

It does seem to meet your criteria though, fishingpaul - lightweight and good assist on hills? Has a certain style & good range too?

What do you think?

Stuart.

 

[StrangeFish]

Hi Joab! welcome to the Forum, like yourself, I am also a "newby". That is quite some mileage you clocked up there, I guess it must be what you do for a living, would I be right in my assumption? Also, what e-bike do you ride ?

All the best,
StrangeFish.

 

[BossBob]

Is it just me but i would much prefer a lightweight non asssisted bicycle,if it were not for the hills,some people seem to be making excuses for expensive electric bikes, not being able to do what they have been purchased for,or not meeting advertised expectations,

Well, that is not my experience.

My Ebike does exactly what it says on the label.
It cost me £224 delivered - no lightweight bicycle is going to get near that price!
The effort required for my every day commute is more than halved
In headwinds and up hills I am miles better off than any bicycle on an effort to progress ratio

Rab