Whisper UK customer serveice

flecc · Mar 2, 2008

Hello Rob. I'm not sure if your thread is a request for help or a criticism of the supplier.

If you need help on correcting the wiring fault, here's a thread which explains the action to take:

Wisper 905se wiring fault

Otherwise I understand that these bikes on the UK market and to UK specification don't have a fault. The Germany edition has to have a different spec to match their legal requirements, and the fault exists on those.

As you'll see on that link, Wisper UK have been very helpful in obtaining the information necessary to correct this fault (despite them not selling the bikes to the customers) which was just one wire misplaced, the sort of assembly error that can easily occur when a product is being produced in two wiring configurations for different markets.
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frank9755 · Mar 2, 2008

Rob,

Welcome to the forum.

You're not alone. I had the same thing with my Wisper 905se. It's now fixed thanks to Dick and David from Wisper, who have provided detailed instructions on what to do, and to JimmyEngland, who, based on his experience of the old 905e, knew that Wisper could do a decent pedelec function and asked the right question.

I've carried out the modification on my bike and it has transformed it. Previously I had considered it as just a throttle bike, like a Powabyke or Ezee. It performed well enough in this mode but the pedelec function was so erratic as to be unusable. Pedelec now works perfectly and I get great performance without having to touch the throttle. If you have any problems getting the instructions, I'd be delighted to forward them on to you. The fix is a little fiddly but requires no great skill, and shouldn't as much as half an hour.

Best advice would be not to touch the New Milton end of Wisper. Doug, who is David's partner, gives the impression that he has taken the sale of the bikes from Wisperbikes.de into the UK market as a grave personal insult. My recent experience includes him withholding the information regarding the incorrect wiring when I asked him a direct question about it in this forum, and him quoting £50+ to my bike shop to obtain a replacement spoke!

For the record, the 905se bikes sold via Wisperbikes.de are exactly the same as those currently available in the UK (although these may have the wiring fault corrected) as they are from the same batch. However Wisper is developing an updated '2008' model with a different spec aimed at the UK market, which will be available in shortly.

Frank

jimmyengland1000 · Mar 2, 2008

Several forum readers have contacted me direct re correcting this fault and I'm pleased to see that it's now in the public domain so that we can all help each other.

The 'German spec' Wisper 905SE isn't any different from the UK one. All it is, is that, when supplied to Germany, they aren't allowed to have a throttle and have to be restricted in power. They also have to have a dynamo lighting system. The 'German' Wispers were shipped there from the UK actually.

So, in Germany, they sold them with the throttle not connected (but actually supplied the throttle assembly for the purchaser to plug in... dead easy) and also the same with the derestrict button. They also put a cheap dynamo and lights on the bike to make it conform to the German regulations. That's it. So, it's a bit misleading to think about the 'German specification' bike as if the motor is half the size or the battery twice as big or whatever. It's two sets of handlebar switches which arrive with the bike and which you have to connect yourself (if you're in Germany) by plugging the block connectors into the corresponding connectors from the controller.. no soldering whatsoever.

The wiring fault actually has nothing to do with the 'German' aspect of things and it's not because the 'spec' is different for Germany (cos it isn't). It's quite simply a production fault by the Chinese manufacturers of the control units. A block connector was put into a brown or black wire and not the yellow one (sensor circuit) on a batch of controllers and, by chance, they ended up on bikes that went to Germany. They may even be on some UK Wispers but corrected. Such production errors and quality control failures are common in China on everything they make. Wrong colour wires are used (eg black for positive, red for negative), cables cut too short etc etc... although they are addressing this.

As Frank has said, a quick fix transforms the bike, with no return to Milton Keynes necessary. If you want to bypass the restrict completely, just let me know. I've removed the left set of switches completely. Oh yes, and I removed the dynamo and lights too and use LED ones instead. It's better than pedalling against the resistance (and noise) of the dynamo. My front light is solar powered (came with the bike) and I use rechargeable batteries in the rear light.

flecc · Mar 2, 2008

rob said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, David and Doug own Whisper UK, they supplied the bikes to E-Wheels in Germany. If there is a manufacturing fault regardless of who the supplier is, they are ultimatly responcible as the owner / manufacturer.

That's quite correct Rob, and we had a lengthy thread on this issue in which there was a difference of opinion. The legal position is clear of course, but I know that in practice it's very difficult to enforce if a supplier wants to make someone jump through hoops.

There's also that part of the law which is conveniently ignored all too often, caveat emptor, let the buyer beware. I think when a product is seen at a substantially lower price than normal and sold through an unexpected source, it should trigger a warning in a prospective customer's mind.

I am sympathetic to the Wisper principals, since they granted a marketing right for Germany with substantial profit margins commensurate with that, only to find the bikes sold back here with customers demanding they provide the support in the UK while the German agent reaps the profit.

Hardly fair is it?

The customer buying the cheap alternative took the risk, and I think that the costs of that risk are morally theirs.
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jimmyengland1000 · Mar 2, 2008

rob said:
Criticisum No help from Whisper UK. Infact very rude e-mail responces from both David and Doug. They are obviously both very aware of this fault, but have chose not to advise. I also note from another thread they are charging £70 to correct the problem experienced on the German bikes.

In fact, David, Doug, Dick Lai and Dominic in Germany are all aware of the problem and what's needed to fix it. I e-mailed Dominic and told him about the fault and Dick Lai in China claims to have done this too but said to me that Dominic continued to sell them with the fault not corrected.

We've had a thread about this warranty thing before. I was told by Wisper that they would not accept any warranty claims on a 'German' bike. We all had a long discussion about this and nobody is really any the wiser as to what Wisper UK would do re the 'German' ones (although David was very helpful to me re providing info on the fix, supplied by Dick Lai). It would seem ironic if your fixing a manufacturing defect yourself, knowing it works, invalidates the guarantee! But paying £70 and all the transport costs to have it done 'officially' by Wisper seems excessive. Looking at Doug's previous posting here on the forum, I doubt it's he who will fix it, since his reply doesn't make sense. http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/1276-wisper-905se-torque-arm-lack-2.html#post17175

I think the point with these 'German' Wispers is that they are being sold for £900 and here in the UK, they want £1200 for them and don't offer a discount. So, they are being undercut on price on their own product. I think the best course would have been for Doug and David to cooperate on the warranty business and state that clearly. For the sake of the number of bikes involved, it would have made PR sense. But, because of the way things were done, there's been a cloud of confusion, resentment, lack of cooperation (but not by David Miall re sending me info, I must say) and, even now, nobody knows what's what re warranty.

However, I would not worry re warranty. I just bought a spare controller for £20 delivered and a spare motor for £77 delivered... from the very manufacturers that supply Wisper. I'm also looking into batteries. There's not much else that would cause a problem. Mine has NO warranty, although it's 2 miles old, since I bought it 'used'. It doesn't really worry me, given the source of cheap spares. If I were you, I'd modify the 905SE yourself, get riding it and, if you ever get a problem, relax in the knowledge that spares can be had cheaply.

frank9755 · Mar 2, 2008

flecc said:
I am sympathetic to the Wisper principals, since they granted a marketing right for Germany with substantial profit margins commensurate with that, only to find the bikes sold back here with customers demanding they provide the support in the UK while the German agent reaps the profit.

Hardly fair is it?

The customer buying the cheap alternative took the risk, and I think that the costs of that risk are morally theirs.
.

I understand your point, Flecc, and sympathise with where you are coming from. However, because it doesn't correctly represent my position nor, I believe, that of other Wisper 905se owners with whom I've communicated, I'll clarify.

I've never asked Wisper for any support whatsoever, related to warranty or otherwise (other than posing questions on this forum which they, on occasion, have answered). I have had the odd minor fault with my bike which I have fixed myself. I firmly believe that if you buy something remotely, be it from ebay, or indeed a distance seller such as, say, 50 Cycles, you need to be prepared to do that because it is simply not worthwhile to send things back and forwards for a simple fix. Also, if you get something at a lower price or earlier than it is fully available, I agree it is reasonable to have to deal with a few rough edges oneself.

What I objected to was Wisper UK and Wisperbikes.de pointing the finger at each other saying that the other one had responsibility to fix major problems which might occur. I believe it is the responsibility of the OEM to put in place warranty support arrangements. This should include implementing recharging mechanisms to ensure that, in this case, Wisper Germany pays for faults in its products out of its margin. The way that Wisper UK made their point appeared to me to be abdicating this obligation and trying to use the cost of transport to Germany as an evading technique. This meant that, if my battery were to die after a week I'd have two parties smugly pointing at eachother and the nonesense of transporting a bike to Hamburg for Wisperbikes.de to send it back to Wisper in Kent/Hampshire.

I felt Wisper were unwise to make such a big deal of it for two reasons. One because it created the impression (which I now believe is incorrect or at least unfounded) that they expected their bikes to break with alarming frequency. Secondly because in doing so they were irritating the early adopters who were keen to get their product and could help build their brand with feedback such as on this forum. I can recall at least two people on this forum who said they had been persuaded not to buy Wisper bikes because of this response.

Things got a little silly, but since David Miall's return from China, he has set out some very reasonable suggestions. As a result I would now have no hesitation in recommending a Wisper bike to a potential buyer where I think it fits their requirements.

Sorry to go on but I don't want people to think that the 905se buyers were wingeing to Wisper for trivial fixes - we just wanted to know that if the worst came to pass there was someone we could turn to, and to know that we were using hte product of a company which did business in a way in which we approved. Thanks to David's recent statements, I am happy on that count.

Frank

flecc · Mar 2, 2008

I understand that Frank, and am not implying that all Wisper.de customers are whingeing. I do stand by what I've said regarding taking the risk involved for their decision, since, although you have, some appear not to have accepted that.

However I don't think Wisper should have to involve itself in such pre-marketing agreement complexities. It's clear that in appointing an agent in Germany, there was no intention that he should inadvertently undercut UK sales via ebay selling so what happened was unfortunate, but I stand by the Wisper principal's responses, since moral responsibility for those German sales wasn't theirs in the UK.

As you say, David's responses since have been helpful in trying to alleviate the problems arising so with luck the problem and consumer complaints arising from it like this thread will eventually go away.
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frank9755 · Mar 2, 2008

I agree with almost all of that apart from one point...but its all been said before so I won't go on!

flecc · Mar 2, 2008

frank9755 said:
I agree with almost all of that apart from one point...but its all been said before so I won't go on!

I'll go on for you Frank.

This point?

I don't think Wisper should have to involve itself in such pre-marketing agreement complexities.

Right?

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frank9755 · Mar 2, 2008

What I meant was that, as we know, Wisper UK is the OEM as well as the local distributor. If it was just a distributor then the German bikes would be absolutely nothing to do with them. Because they are the OEM, I felt they had an obligation to operate a sensible warranty system, which by my definition would not involve bikes making return trips to Germany for no useful reason, but would have responsibilities and costs agreed and acknowledged between them and their country distributors. They really ought to have done this as much for their own benefit as anyone elses, as there is no doubt people have decided not to buy Wisper bikes as a result.

What normally happens, and what I think the rules state but I am no expert so don't know for certain, is that you can take a faulty thing to any EU distributor who will get your thing fixed and reclaim from the OEM. Wisper seem to have an arrangement whereby they build in a margin to cover warranty fixes into their distributor agreement - but that is their concern and nothing to do with the customer who is not party to that agreement.

The Wisper guys are no fools or amateurs and I believe they knew this all along, but tried to get round it by asserting that the UK and German bikes were different, which would give them a legitimate get-out. It got a bit silly when Doug tried to assert that the German bikes were poor quality and not fit for purpose, when actually they pretty good! It felt that were he to win the battle with that argument he would lose the war! The main flaw, as we all know, was that the bikes sold so far in the UK and Germany are identical in every respect. As proof, the reward I offered remains unclaimed!

I believe they have now offered a sensible arrangement. While I can't remember what it is, and I think it highly improbable I'd ever use it, I remember thinking it sounded fair at the time (both to Wisper and everyone else) so I am now happy!

flecc · Mar 2, 2008

Understood Frank.

To me almost the whole e-bike market seems to be a little bit sloppy in many areas, just a reflection of the small size of the operations in most cases I feel.

This is not the first e-bike supplier to be challenged in here on the warranty issue of course, and I've seen similar in other limited fields.
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Cyclezee · Mar 2, 2008

In my opinion, all e-bike dealers need to take a course in customer relations at the earliest opportunity. The time and money invested would without a doubt lead to happier customers and increased profits.
A single named person to deal with customers issues might also be a good idea, then people would know who to ask for rather than being fobbed of with any old Tim, Doug or Harry.

The customer is King and should be treated as such, even if he or she happens to be a total wally, make him or her feel like their custom is important.
Simple things are important to customers, like telephone calls and email enquires answered promptly and politely.

John

flecc · Mar 2, 2008

Aldby said:
In my opinion, all e-bike dealers need to take a course in customer relations at the earliest opportunity. The time and money invested would without a doubt lead to happier customers and increased profits.
A single named person to deal with customers issues might also be a good idea, then people would know who to ask for rather than being fobbed of with any old Tim, Doug or Harry.

The customer is King and should be treated as such, even if he or she happens to be a total wally, make him or her feel like their custom is important.
Simple things are important to customers, like telephone calls and email enquires answered promptly and politely.

John

100% agreed John, particularly the first sentence. I've worked in a large number of areas in touch with or directly involved with customer relations, and this one is the worst I've known by far, the bungling amateurism and lack of clearly defined responsibilities and structures enough to shock me at times.

The volunteers in here give much better service than most e-bike suppliers.
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fishingpaul · Mar 2, 2008

After seeing that jimmy england has bought a motor and controller for £97,it seems there must be some very large profits being made on these bikes,dont forget £97 is for one motor and one controller,if you were buying a hundred or more like wisper they would cost far less,so less than £100 for motor and controller,the batteries retail at about £300,and this adds up to a £1200 bike how?,i realise you have to pay for quality,but at present paying premium prices is no guarantee of quality,often with only a lousy 6 month guarantee on batteries,the same as on £300 electric bikes.if someone can offer an electric bike with lithium or nimh battery,with a twelve month guarantee and decent performance for under £1000,they will be number one seller in the uk.

keithhazel · Mar 2, 2008

flecc said:
100% agreed John,
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WOW. ..just goes to show the power and enthusiasm of electric bikes when even in adversity of mechanical failures/warranty issues and other such topics it can bring two arch rivals.. together...in full agreement....
who needs pot lol....

jimmyengland1000 · Mar 3, 2008

fishingpaul said:
if someone can offer an electric bike with lithium or nimh battery,with a twelve month guarantee and decent performance for under £1000,they will be number one seller in the uk.

All goods sold in the UK by retailers are covered by the Sale of Goods Act. This stipulates a guarantee period of 12 months on any item sold in the UK and, in the event of a return being needed, the retailer must pay for it. So, for example the seller on eBay who sells Synergie bikes and who was offering a 90 day warranty are actually breaking the law anyway. I've spoken to my local trading standards department about warranties on new items sold by retailers based in the UK... usually sold on eBay. It is pretty scandalous how poor the 'guarantees' are that are offered by sellers of items on eBay.

I would suggest anyone who intends to pay out a lot of money for a bike should phone their local trading standards to check on the law regarding warranties and, if the seller does not adhere to this, point it out to them (and not buy from them of course).

By the way, I've heard that an e-bike is sold at £225 in China (to importers here), so, if manufacturers are operating at 100% park-up, we are looking at a production cost of £112 or so. Then there is shipping to here, import duties and VAT payable on the total.

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