When I imported some computer equipment from the US a couple of years ago, it was VAT @17.5 % + import duty. I had to pay at the postal centre before they'd release it to me. It all adds up and in the end I only saved a small amount over buying the items here. As for what the import duty rates are for different products or VAT rates payable, I don't know but perhaps forum members with experience running a company can help?
Where to get Batteries
- Thread starter JohnInStockie
- Start date
It's virtually impossible to predict an exact figure Andrew, since as some of the following shows, some of the charges are decided on an ad hoc basis. The first extract sections are from a US company's advice to customers:
3.2 Since the introduction of new rules regarding VAT in the EU we have been forced to register for VAT in most EU countries so for all customers in the UK and other European Union countries - VAT is charged at the locally prevailing rate for your country. Documentation is enclosed with the goods to confirm that VAT has been charged and the rate which has been applied.
3.3 Under UK VAT rules, VAT is charged on all shipping costs including Royal Mail.
3.7 Many countries charge duty on goods at the point of import, these will normally be collected by the courier used to deliver your goods - this is a charge levied by your government not by eXpansys and we have no control over it.
This next extract is from the general position:
# Customs valuation
The customs valuation of goods is calculated on 1 of 6 methods. The most often used is the transaction method, based on the price paid for the goods. So if there is a sale of the goods leading to importation, then the sale price is the starting point. To this have to be added freight insurance and other adjustments to arrive at a landed cost. In some circumstances payments for intangibles such as royalties have to be included in the values. Commercial arrangements directly affect customs valuation. Where there is a physical transfer but no sale, or they are leased, rented, provided free of charge, or there is a sale but the price is influenced between related parties, then one of the other 5 methods is used.
# Customs duty rates
The rate of customs duty charged on the customs value is determined according to the tariff classification of the goods from 0% to 25%. The UK Tariff is based on the EC Tariff and in turn on the international tariff coding system covering everything in the world. International trade disputes arise when countries interpret the tariff rules differently! Smart importers use tariff engineering to achieve different classifications with a lower duty rate when planning their product design, or when deciding the make up of consignments.
3.2 Since the introduction of new rules regarding VAT in the EU we have been forced to register for VAT in most EU countries so for all customers in the UK and other European Union countries - VAT is charged at the locally prevailing rate for your country. Documentation is enclosed with the goods to confirm that VAT has been charged and the rate which has been applied.
3.3 Under UK VAT rules, VAT is charged on all shipping costs including Royal Mail.
3.7 Many countries charge duty on goods at the point of import, these will normally be collected by the courier used to deliver your goods - this is a charge levied by your government not by eXpansys and we have no control over it.
This next extract is from the general position:
# Customs valuation
The customs valuation of goods is calculated on 1 of 6 methods. The most often used is the transaction method, based on the price paid for the goods. So if there is a sale of the goods leading to importation, then the sale price is the starting point. To this have to be added freight insurance and other adjustments to arrive at a landed cost. In some circumstances payments for intangibles such as royalties have to be included in the values. Commercial arrangements directly affect customs valuation. Where there is a physical transfer but no sale, or they are leased, rented, provided free of charge, or there is a sale but the price is influenced between related parties, then one of the other 5 methods is used.
# Customs duty rates
The rate of customs duty charged on the customs value is determined according to the tariff classification of the goods from 0% to 25%. The UK Tariff is based on the EC Tariff and in turn on the international tariff coding system covering everything in the world. International trade disputes arise when countries interpret the tariff rules differently! Smart importers use tariff engineering to achieve different classifications with a lower duty rate when planning their product design, or when deciding the make up of consignments.
Oh my god that is sooo confusing
I wouldn`t mind if we had a good "cellbike" industry here, all the right price cool stuff is in the US/Canada/China.
Just one thing.. If you buy with a view to resell, when does the vat get paid?
Andrew
I wouldn`t mind if we had a good "cellbike" industry here, all the right price cool stuff is in the US/Canada/China.
Just one thing.. If you buy with a view to resell, when does the vat get paid?
Andrew
If you're a VAT registered business, by the final customer is the usual way.
I don't thinks HMRC would entertain a VAT delay for a private individual reselling, they'd be expected to add it when reselling and get it back that way.
On that confusing information, apparently the EC tariffs for all the different goods are in three volumes and on CD ROMs with a subscription fee of £200 per annum to access. As you say, they don't make it easy.
Could be a web business there though. Get a licence to access and make the information online available as single searches at say £1 a time via PayPal or WorldPay.
www.ectariffs.eu
No, don't bother to click it!
I don't thinks HMRC would entertain a VAT delay for a private individual reselling, they'd be expected to add it when reselling and get it back that way.
On that confusing information, apparently the EC tariffs for all the different goods are in three volumes and on CD ROMs with a subscription fee of £200 per annum to access. As you say, they don't make it easy.
Could be a web business there though. Get a licence to access and make the information online available as single searches at say £1 a time via PayPal or WorldPay.
www.ectariffs.eu
No, don't bother to click it!
The good news is that I will have the Yank batteries tomorrow.
The bad news is the customs bill, £33, some you win, some you lose!!
I didn't expect it to be as high as that with a declared value of 150$ but the barstewards charge VAT on the postage as well. Bloody nerve when the postage is paid for in the States.
Makes the total bill for 10Ah battery pack and charger £180. So still a lot cheaper for a battery with hopefully more ooomph, but not as good a deal as I had hoped.
Batteryspace have said that they will look at discount prices if others are interested and pool a joint order, postage would also be be cheaper for two or more.
Chris.
The bad news is the customs bill, £33, some you win, some you lose!!
I didn't expect it to be as high as that with a declared value of 150$ but the barstewards charge VAT on the postage as well. Bloody nerve when the postage is paid for in the States.
Makes the total bill for 10Ah battery pack and charger £180. So still a lot cheaper for a battery with hopefully more ooomph, but not as good a deal as I had hoped.
Batteryspace have said that they will look at discount prices if others are interested and pool a joint order, postage would also be be cheaper for two or more.
Chris.
£18 per Ah is not too bad Chris, compares with Cellpack Solutions doing it if they live up to their claim, and cheaper than their reported result. It's way cheaper than Giant. Only the Powacycle cellpack 8 Ah option is cheaper at £13 per Ah.
That freight and postage duty problem is mentioned in some of the extracts I posted above.
That freight and postage duty problem is mentioned in some of the extracts I posted above.
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It actually finishes up nearer the Powabyke costing as there is a charger with it as well as mine is bowloxed. Charger was £20 plus a portion of the postage plus Customs jugular extaction, probably totals about £35 so £14½ per Ah for a more powerful battery. I can live with that and still have the old cell set for longer range rides / emergency uses. I'll get a couple of HD diodes from the local radio shack and set them up to run in parallel if I wish.
Others will benefit more, if these batteries and your hard work tie in, from pooling orders.
Chris.
By local Radio Shack I meant the font of all knowledge in the little specialist shop down the town near me. He's helped me before with advice.
Re heavy duty diodes, they are effectively non return valves. If I connect two batteries together in parrallel they are unlikely to be in exactly the same state of charge, especially in an emergency situation. Thus I could be introducing a dead short from the stronger to the weaker as the stronger battery will try to charge the weaker battery. A Diode on the positive line to the common feed from each battery will prevent electrickery from going back up the positive to the weaker battery. In my case one cell pack is four years old, so will probably partially drain the new cell pack if left connected together and I don't take precautions.
Clear as mud??
Chris
Chris, be careful about using that charger at first. Whether the charger will be any good doesn't depend on the cells but on the NTC thermistor in the battery which you'll be incorporating again when you re-cell. These chargers are far from universal for that reason.
There could be two possible problems. The first and most common is premature cut out before the battery is charged. The second is more serious, failing to cut out before a peak voltage of 30 volts is reached, since that will destroy the new NiMh cells. Also, do you know the wiring on that new charger? Check with me if you're not sure of the connections on it for transfer to the 7 pin socket.
The first problem you'll know of course as it will be obvious, but if you don't get premature cut out, monitor the voltage with a meter during the first couple of charges and make sure it cuts out at around 29 volts. A maximum of about 29.3 volts is ok, but not beyond. If it isn't ok, the charger I've recommended on my site will be ok since it's matched to that thermistor and is good for up to 13 Ah.
There could be two possible problems. The first and most common is premature cut out before the battery is charged. The second is more serious, failing to cut out before a peak voltage of 30 volts is reached, since that will destroy the new NiMh cells. Also, do you know the wiring on that new charger? Check with me if you're not sure of the connections on it for transfer to the 7 pin socket.
The first problem you'll know of course as it will be obvious, but if you don't get premature cut out, monitor the voltage with a meter during the first couple of charges and make sure it cuts out at around 29 volts. A maximum of about 29.3 volts is ok, but not beyond. If it isn't ok, the charger I've recommended on my site will be ok since it's matched to that thermistor and is good for up to 13 Ah.
Is it a good idea to buy an extra battery (assuming one is available/affordable!) when purchasing an e-bike, given the apparent difficulty of finding replacements futher down the line? If so, would it be best practise to alternate the usage of the two batteries or keep one, unused, in stock? Do batteries have a "use by" date?
If it's a recently introduced bike, there's usually no need. The Twist problem is unusual in that Giant discontinued it due to high production cost, and have adopted a high price policy for spares. The existing ones are easily re-celled at low cost though.
A spare Li-ion shouldn't be bought unless it's needed for extra range, since they deteriorate whether they are used or not. There are special cold storage methods to alleviate that if necessary though.
A spare NiMh can be bought if wished, and is best used in rotation.
A spare Li-ion shouldn't be bought unless it's needed for extra range, since they deteriorate whether they are used or not. There are special cold storage methods to alleviate that if necessary though.
A spare NiMh can be bought if wished, and is best used in rotation.
Well I'm half way through the battery transplant operation and have stopped for a cuppa. One nice bright spark so far, but hopefully no damage done
I was hoping to simplify matters, but on examination of the Giant case, its obvious I have to follow Flecc's instructions to the letter. Thus the old cellpack looks consigned to the bin. The only extra safety bit I've done is to put a bit of damp sponge on the cell whose tag I am soldering as an additional precaition against cooking. You need a decent soldering iron for this, I use a fast ceramic iron. The less powerful the iron, the more gets cooked when heating the tag.
The batteryspace cellpack is better suited as the tags are in the same postion as the Giant. As Batteryspace make these packs, its probably worth asking the question about supplying just the pack without all the power and charger connections, would save one of the two risky soldering operations. and possibly be cheaper
A full bulletin will be issued in due course.
Chris
I was hoping to simplify matters, but on examination of the Giant case, its obvious I have to follow Flecc's instructions to the letter. Thus the old cellpack looks consigned to the bin. The only extra safety bit I've done is to put a bit of damp sponge on the cell whose tag I am soldering as an additional precaition against cooking. You need a decent soldering iron for this, I use a fast ceramic iron. The less powerful the iron, the more gets cooked when heating the tag.
The batteryspace cellpack is better suited as the tags are in the same postion as the Giant. As Batteryspace make these packs, its probably worth asking the question about supplying just the pack without all the power and charger connections, would save one of the two risky soldering operations.
and possibly be cheaper A full bulletin will be issued in due course.
Chris
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Patient is now in recovery and appears that it will be 'discharged' shortly.
Excellent instructions thank you Flecc, looked quite daunting to start with, but its not. One thing you could add is to replace the battery handle BEFORE you put the case back together!!!
I'll PM the description.
Thanks
Chris
Excellent instructions thank you Flecc, looked quite daunting to start with, but its not. One thing you could add is to replace the battery handle BEFORE you put the case back together!!!
I'll PM the description.
Thanks
Chris
Thanks Chris. The instructions do look daunting at first simply because I've tried to be thorough in describing every step, but as you say, it's really very easy.
Good point about the handle, easily omitted, so I'll make that small addition.*
Here's the link with instructions for anyone else wanting to re-cell a Giant Twist series battery:
battchoice
That gives you the lowest cost cells, 8Ah with a gain of 23% capacity over the standard ones, but if you don't mind spending a little extra to get 35% gain in capacity, those 10Ah cellpacks that Chris used are available from Batteryspace.
P.S.* Webpage updated as requested:
- - - screw posts so they don't foul the case screws as they are replaced. Replace the handle into the lower case half. Turn the upper case half, locate the terminal block (4) into it's recess (3) and press home the case, checking for trapped wires as you do it. Then - - - -
Good point about the handle, easily omitted, so I'll make that small addition.*
Here's the link with instructions for anyone else wanting to re-cell a Giant Twist series battery:
battchoice
That gives you the lowest cost cells, 8Ah with a gain of 23% capacity over the standard ones, but if you don't mind spending a little extra to get 35% gain in capacity, those 10Ah cellpacks that Chris used are available from Batteryspace.
P.S.* Webpage updated as requested:
- - - screw posts so they don't foul the case screws as they are replaced. Replace the handle into the lower case half. Turn the upper case half, locate the terminal block (4) into it's recess (3) and press home the case, checking for trapped wires as you do it. Then - - - -
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Cellpack all done and dusted.
Used it for the first time today and am pleasantly pleased at this early stage.
Range has definitely increased significantly, though I don't know by how much yet. Unexpected result was that there appears more oomph in the motor than from my tired old battery.
I'll try and get a definitive estimate on the range after a couple of charges.
Chris.
Used it for the first time today and am pleasantly pleased at this early stage.
Range has definitely increased significantly, though I don't know by how much yet. Unexpected result was that there appears more oomph in the motor than from my tired old battery.
I'll try and get a definitive estimate on the range after a couple of charges.
Chris.
Heard from Batteryspace today.
They have offered to supply the 10Ah cellpack with just the tags and thin enough shrinkwrap ready to go for the Giant cellpack replacement. If there is interest they will put a direct link on their site.
If ordered in pairs they would cost approx £130 (each) including postage and import charge if applied by the customs.
Chris.
They have offered to supply the 10Ah cellpack with just the tags and thin enough shrinkwrap ready to go for the Giant cellpack replacement. If there is interest they will put a direct link on their site.
If ordered in pairs they would cost approx £130 (each) including postage and import charge if applied by the customs.
Chris.
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I will be interested to know what range you get out of it after 3 discharge cycles to condition the battery. 10 Ah is state of the art at the moment as far as D Cells go. Even Ansmann are only up to 10000 mAh. Just like computer CPUs, the very latest and greatest in terms of rechargable battery performance attracts a significant price premium so I think that represents good value! Now all we need is someone who can mould 3rd party casing halves and provide terminals and a LED guage to fit a Twist and we can at last buy a complete battery for a reasonable price!
I'm still using the Panasonic charger until Flecc's replacement charger arrives. I decided the Batterspace charger was a poor choice as I did not spot it lacked a dischrge facilty. I just assumed 'Smart Charger' would do the business. Flecc's charger should guarantee a full charge, which I cannot with the Panasonic.
5.3 miles on hilly terrain with 30% assist on full time only dropped it one light today. I'm planning a long run tomorrow night, but will need to get the thing discharged tonight / tomorrow morning, better head for the pub tonight!!!
Chris.
5.3 miles on hilly terrain with 30% assist on full time only dropped it one light today. I'm planning a long run tomorrow night, but will need to get the thing discharged tonight / tomorrow morning, better head for the pub tonight!!!
Chris.
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