When 15 mph isn't enough

[flecc]

To people of even very average fitness you would have to live in a very hilly or windy area for a legal one being any use.

I think that's going too far when one considers normal day to day cycling speeds.

Of all the unpowered bikes I see on the flat in my area, only the drop handlebar sporting types are normally doing around 20 mph. Mountain bikes are more likely to be seen ridden at between 12 and 15 mph, and utility bikes are typically ridden between about 10 and 12 mph. Those speeds have been generally true throughout my long life in many areas.

E-bikes are not intended to be sports bikes as I've observed above, they are electric assist for utility cycling at the above speeds. Those who wish to ride at higher speeds are very well served at every level with mopeds, and motorcycles from lightweight through to supersport machines capable of 200 mph.

Speed brings with it dangers and civil implications of various kinds which demand that faster vehicles be registered and traceable, and anyone is free to have a much faster and more powerful e-bike by importing or creating it and registering it for single vehicle type approval, then complying with the regulations for motor cycling. The full test cost for Single Vehicle Approval (SVA) is £200 and a retest at £45.

So ultimately no-one is preventing anyone from having more speed or more power on a bicycle or any other two wheeler, but they must comply with the regulations thought appropriate by the authorities for each circumstance.
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[The Maestro]

I agree but an expensive bike (and it would be) that assists up to 20MPH rather than 15MPH isn't going to make much difference. It's the cost and the dangers to themselves that puts most people off.

Well most UK ebikes are simply crippled/restricted e-bikes designed to do 20 mph. The restriction hardware probably adds to the cost so imo a 20mph assist bike would be cheaper.

I agree that its risk to the people themselves that would put most people off. Getting good cycle routes away from traffic is probably a better way to encourage cycling for now.

 

[Barnowl]

Well most UK ebikes are simply crippled/restricted e-bikes designed to do 20 mph. The restriction hardware probably adds to the cost so imo a 20mph assist bike would be cheaper.

I agree that its risk to the people themselves that would put most people off. Getting good cycle routes away from traffic is probably a better way to encourage cycling for now.

It's true some UK ebikes are restricted e-bikes designed to do 20 mph but I believe they are the expensive ones like the Agattu and the Wisper. The problem with the speed is the extra battery cost - not the charging but having an expensive battery with plenty of capacity. You'll also want some decent brakes and better quality longer lasting components.

Getting good cycle routes away from traffic - if only.

 

[flecc]

Well most UK ebikes are simply crippled/restricted e-bikes designed to do 20 mph. The restriction hardware probably adds to the cost so imo a 20mph assist bike would be cheaper.

Oh no, I can't let that pass as true, it's the opposite! Only the eZee Sprint was like that in the mainstream. Their Torq 2 and F series have different motors, one for the USA and one for the rest of the world. Other mainstream bikes like Wisper typically and all the European bikes are designed as 15.5 mph/25 kph models with no US equivalent. Most of them aren't even marketed in the USA, eZee being an exception, together with Giant who don't alter their EU speeds for the Americans.

All Japanese production is to their strict standards or EU standards, as is much of China's production as seen on ebay.

It's not a matter of the UK being strict, its the USA which is liberal, since much of the world has standards very much like ours.
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[flecc]

It's true some UK ebikes are restricted e-bikes designed to do 20 mph but I believe they are the expensive ones like the Agattu and the Wisper.

Not so. Neither Kalkhoff or Wisper are marketed in the very few 20 mph zones like the USA.

They are only sold in areas with EU type restrictions and only made in that form.
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[Barnowl]

Not so. Neither Kalkhoff or Wisper are marketed in the very few 20 mph zones like the USA.

They are only sold in areas with EU type restrictions and only made in that form.
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I stand corrected. It was the impression I got that if you wanted to get greater assisted speeds than 15MPH (15.5?) for off road in the UK a Wisper or an Aguttu (with a cog change) would do the job. I'm not sure about other bikes but in the UK none spring to mind except the Torque etc. Can a derestricted Wisper not get up to 20MPH then?

 

[flecc]

I stand corrected. It was the impression I got that if you wanted to get greater assisted speeds than 15MPH (15.5?) for off road in the UK a Wisper or an Aguttu (with a cog change) would do the job. I'm not sure about other bikes but in the UK none spring to mind except the Torque etc. Can a derestricted Wisper not get up to 20MPH then?

I understand the 905se if derestricted can get to around 18 mph, but some say if pedalled there's a bit of assistance beyond.

It's just a design matter. If a bike is designed so the motor runs out of revs at 15 mph to comply, Giant's and Powacycle's bike being like that, they are a bit slow overall, ok to 13 mph but slowing to the limit, resulting in bikes that average 12 to 13 mph.

The alternative that Wisper, eZee and others use is to design to pass the limit a bit and then restrict to ensure legality. That results in a bike that readily powers to the limit and averages near the limit across country. That's more popular of course.

Some earlier eZee models had no restriction, the Sprint and Quando would both run to about 18 mph on a freshly charged battery, declining to 15 mph as the battery emptied.
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[Barnowl]

Sorry I see what you mean - I think. At least in terms of design and marketing.. It's the Wisper derestriction thing that's confusing me - It implies that it's restricted.
Anyhow I don't have a problem with the limit

 

[Barnowl]

Flecc - I'm a slow typer you beat me to it

 

[Mussels]

So we've decided that e-bikes should only be of use to the old, infirm or lazy police. To people of even very average fitness you would have to live in a very hilly or windy area for a legal one being any use.

If these bikes really are only to allow 'challenged' people to continue cycling we really are missing a very big trick in terms of getting ordinary people cycling and realising the benefits of lower congestion, pollution and huge health benefits.

I'm not old, infirm or a lazy copper but find that the hills in London make having a pedelec very worthwhile and I imagine a lot of the country has bigger hills and greater benefit.
Getting ordinary people cycling is not the same as giving ordinary people motorbikes to ride on the pavements. Why is there any need to confuse the two?

 

[fishingpaul]

Oh no, I can't let that pass as true, it's the opposite! Only the eZee Sprint was like that in the mainstream. Their Torq 2 and F series have different motors, one for the USA and one for the rest of the world. Other mainstream bikes like Wisper typically and all the European bikes are designed as 15.5 mph/25 kph models with no US equivalent. Most of them aren't even marketed in the USA, eZee being an exception, together with Giant who don't alter their EU speeds for the Americans.

All Japanese production is to their strict standards or EU standards, as is much of China's production as seen on ebay.

It's not a matter of the UK being strict, its the USA which is liberal, since much of the world has standards very much like ours.
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I remember seeing an interview of an american woman, with a giant suede on youtube it did 18mph i think, and also came with a throttle as standard different to how they were supplied here.

 

[fishingpaul]

As for the safety aspect of limiting electric bikes to 15mph on the flat,but allowing any speed you dare downhill, with all that extra weight electric bikes can be much faster downhil, most electric bikes only use standard brakes, and it is downhill where i see the most potential accidents compared to a standard bike, especially with a lead acid battery bike, a limit of 20 mph top speed allowed on an ebike could actually be safer.

 

[flecc]

I remember seeing an interview of an american woman, with a giant suede on youtube it did 18mph i think, and also came with a throttle as standard different to how they were supplied here.

The Suede may have be an exception Paul, since it was fitted with what had been an American Motor. It's Sanyo motor was originally the US Birkestrand Corporation's Motorised Wheel. However we had the power on demand mod here so it might have been similarly modified by the US dealer.

Few bikes are supplied for the US market, since it's far more primitive than most here realise. In that huge country there are two dealers, Nycewheels in New York and Electric Vehicles NW in Seattle and Oceanside California. That's it, North East and the West Coast, if you live in the south east or anywhere down the centre in that 3000 mile wide country you've nothing. There are no manufacturers or distributors importing there like 50cycles, Wisper, Giant UK etc, just those two dealers. And what do they stock? Just eZee and Giant, plus an occasional oddball Chinese sourced variation in the case of Nycewheels. Both stock the Canadian BionX kit.

Hopefully you can see why few attempt to design and supply high speed bikes for two dealers, it's not worth it. E-bikes are a busted flush in the USA and likely to remain so, being occasionally used for fun purposes but very rarely for any serious use. As we all know, they drive cars.
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[Hooligooner]

As for the safety aspect of limiting electric bikes to 15mph on the flat,but allowing any speed you dare downhill, with all that extra weight electric bikes can be much faster downhil, most electric bikes only use standard brakes, and it is downhill where i see the most potential accidents compared to a standard bike, especially with a lead acid battery bike, a limit of 20 mph top speed allowed on an ebike could actually be safer.

It's not so bad, I can get up to 35mph on my downhill run and being able to keep with the flow of traffic is much safer than not. I do keep a close eye on the brakes though, although the biggest problem I seem to get is cable stretch. The V-brakes really are surprisingly effective on a 37Kg bike.

 

[dodgyal]

Almost no-one is killed by cyclists. Your chances of killing or injuring a 3rd party even on a massively bigger, faster and heavier motorbike is vastly lower than driving a car. Personally I couldn't care less about the law, surely what's more important is the risk of injury to 3rd parties based on your chosen form of transport. How can this country be so screwed up that people can get prosecuted and criminalised for doing something that carries FAR less risk than what millions of people (including me) do every day - driving a car..

If someone's dead then insurance doesn't do them a hell of a lot of good - best to encourage people to use a form of transport thats less likely to result in that even if its not insured!

BTW. I'm not nocking car drivers, they are pretty much essential for many journeys

But were not talking about cyclists, were talking about ebikers who could be as young as 12! ebikes haven't got become (fully) mainstream yet so I don't think you can comment on the safety statistics and the chances of killing a third party, Plus were talking about 20mph+ ebike that are not even on the road in any kind of quantity.

You have car insurance yes? if you are involved in an incident you are covered including liability, what happens when a 12 year old hits a 85 year old on an ebike doing 20MPH+?

Rather than look at cyclists you probably need to be somewhere in between mopeds and cyclists for accident statistics.

In 2003 (I know old data!)
Bicycle deaths 113 (34% under 16)
Motorbike deaths 693 (does not comment on moped)

6382 people were seriously injured on foot or on a bicycle.

Yes almost no-one is killed by cyclists but in 2003 113 were dead.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

USA and Canada

Not so. Neither Kalkhoff or Wisper are marketed in the very few 20 mph zones like the USA.

They are only sold in areas with EU type restrictions and only made in that form.
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Hi Flecc

We have just started marketing in USA and Canada, there they have a choice of the standard 250W or the new Bafang high speed brushless 500W motors, both are restricted to 20mph (it's a bit of a challenge to get the 250 up to that speed). On both bikes the green button remains but it is called the Eco or restrict button and limits the bike to 15mph for greater range.

On tests surprisingly the 500W is only producing 15 to 20% less range than the 250W and makes hill climbing a doddle. The acceleration is notably better too, making the bike safer when pulling out into traffic.

All things considered, I believe that the 500W version is actually safer than the 250W but only if used in conjunction with a throttle so one can ease the power on gradually.

All the best David

 

[flecc]

Thanks for the update David, good to give them some more choice of what we enjoy here. Are you selling online or through bike dealers, since the main two e-bike outlets in the USA don't feature your bikes?

I agree with you about the power usage, using inadequate power to achieve speed rarely results in good economy and a much more powerful motor not working hard makes sense.

Many of us have made the point that power limits should not be set by law but left to designers, only speed limits being a matter for law, but it's unlikely we'll ever get our EU legislators to listen.
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[The Maestro]

Just to respond to a few points people commented on.

About cyclists' average speed - Most cyclists I see using bikes for commuting are doing 20-25mph. Commuting makes up the vast majority of miles most people clock up in their lives imo. Most other cyclists I see are kids mucking around on their mountain bikes, and much rarer families out leisure cycling.

Most UK ebikes being restricted from 20mph to 15mph. Well in my experience which is mainly with generic OEM type components manufactured in china. Most motors I've looked at are geared to spin at 20mph or faster with the wheel size and voltage that particular motor is marked up to use. I've researched 6 or 7 types of motor and found none set up to spin at 15mph let alone optimised for that top speed. As for the more expensive bikes, I was under the impression that most Ezees could be derestricted all though its a bit harder with the newer models. The vast majority of the plethora or cheaper bikes you will see use Suzhou Bafang motors and these are all geared to spin at 20mph for a particular wheel size and voltage. Restricting these to 15mph no load speed severely compromises the motor's performance in my experience and will provide very little assistance above 12mph. Tongxin are similar and the others I've come across have higher rpms.

Safety and risk, yes obviously I'm guessing about this to some extent and trying to extrapolate from figures from ordinary cycling through to moped and motorbikes to assess the risks that a faster ebike would pose compared to a car. All I'm saying is whatever the risk is, its going to be massively lower than driving a car. Lets say for sake of argument, give a journey A-B that the risk or killing or seriously injuring someone is 10 times less on a faster ebike than in a car (in fact for cycling its many many many times less than this and I doubt that a faster ebike would be much different, even if the risk is double or three times its still very low risk)

So you have a journey A-B, 2 types of transport.

Car
Bike

On the upside the car has insurance on the downside an average driver is 10 times more likely to kill or injure someone.

What is better to see on the roads transport that is 10 times more likely to kill or seriously injure (BUT HEY ITS APPROVED, LEGAL AND HAS INSURANCE WOOPEY DOO) or something 10 times less likely whether legal, illegal, regulated or unregulated.

I would say that the risk to the actual rider is significant though (but not much more than normal cycling) so I would restrict it to over 18s, and the other side of the equation is improving cycle routes and road conditions for cyclists and other 2 wheel vehicles. Regulations are a good idea but I certainly think there is room for improvement in the regulations to get more people using this type of bike. The type approval barrier should certainly be scrapped. You can say 'anyone can use these bikes if they really want to' but in reality most people will give up if they have to jump through these kind of hoops.

 

[Conal]

Wheel size

One factor influencing the attainable speed mentioned here but not quantified is the wheel size. I know from experience that, all other factors being equal, my 26" wheel Forza when "off road" in derestricted mode has a top speed slightly less than the 28" wheeled bikes in the eZee range. Larger circumference - faster speed for each revolution.

Conal

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Anmerica

Thanks for the update David, good to give them some more choice of what we enjoy here. Are you selling online or through bike dealers, since the main two e-bike outlets in the USA don't feature your bikes?

I agree with you about the power usage, using inadequate power to achieve speed rarely results in good economy and a much more powerful motor not working hard makes sense.

Many of us have made the point that power limits should not be set by law but left to designers, only speed limits being a matter for law, but it's unlikely we'll ever get our EU legislators to listen.
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Hi Flecc

Airstream are selling for us in Canada and Tentcot have opened a new ebike division that will be launched in the spring.

Regarding the legislators, it is a shame but I think you are absolutely correct. It would cost countless millions of Euros in man power just to look at their error so it is not likely to happen!

Best regards David