What Is The Best Value German Bike Electric Bike?

[103Alex1]

Ktm don't make an ebike that they are prepared to put their name on for less than £1700.00. We fully appreciate that this is an expensive product, and that its not within everyone's budget.

The thing is KTM entry level eBikes are very basic bikes with most of the cost attributable to a (typically) Bosch/Panasonic/BionX drive and battery (I'd hazard about £1,300 - £1,400 of that) - which are generic standard OEM components fitted to hundreds of types of bike. So basically you are paying for a Bosch/Panasonic/BionX drive and battery. First thing is I can't in all conscience attribute that sort of value to a standard 250W setup with often smallish battery (that goes for other makes using these systems as well).

Second thing is I can't reconcile parting with £1,700 and winding up with a bike I'd otherwise probably pick up for no more than £350 tops end of season were it not an eBike. I'm not convinced that the underlying bikes are good enough to warrant spending all that money on overall. Or that the components used are such great shakes as the overall price might suggest without delving deeper. But that's just a personal opinion.

 

[funkylyn]

Hi Lynda, I was wondering yesterday where you had got to, hope you've been well and the business is ok at this quieter time of the year.

Still alive and kicking flecc, though at 5.30am at the start of another 14 hr day, I sometimes wonder lol
Not so quiet thankfully, business is very busy as Whitfield is the hub of a huge shooting estate so I get lots of gamekeepers/beaters/guns in for coffee/soup/tea/pies/bacon sandwiches/chocolate/cakes etc to keep them going, and until the first snow we still get people out for a drive around.......and the best thing is......I am LOVING it.......but with all the running around,the really best thing is Ive lost 10lbs.....

Hope you are keeping well flecc and still getting out photographing nature.....btw.....the spiders are HUGE up here

Lynda

 

[flecc]

Good to hear you are keeping busy Lynda, me too, been photographing fungi for the FSW site, 110 species so far.

Do you mean spiders like this?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

The thing is KTM entry level eBikes are very basic bikes with most of the cost attributable to a (typically) Bosch/Panasonic/BionX drive and battery (I'd hazard about £1,300 - £1,400 of that) - which are generic standard OEM components fitted to hundreds of types of bike. So basically you are paying for a Bosch/Panasonic/BionX drive and battery. First thing is I can't in all conscience attribute that sort of value to a standard 250W setup with often smallish battery (that goes for other makes using these systems as well).

Second thing is I can't reconcile parting with £1,700 and winding up with a bike I'd otherwise probably pick up for no more than £350 tops end of season were it not an eBike. I'm not convinced that the underlying bikes are good enough to warrant spending all that money on overall. Or that the components used are such great shakes as the overall price might suggest without delving deeper. But that's just a personal opinion.

That's simply not true... The macina cross is our cheapest ebike and it comes with a high end spec, things like Shimano Deore disc brakes, an xt shadow rear mech, shimano slx hubs, suntour forks, ritchey headset etc etc.

You can view the full spec here:

FLI Distribution - 2014 KTM MACINA CROSS 10 300Wh

The equivalent non ebike is the life action, which is £849.99

KTM Life Action - 2014 | KTM Hybrids Ladies from £400 at Damian Harris Bikes, Cardiff | UK online bike shop

It's the same with the Panasonic systems, the eRace p for instance, is most definitely not a sub £500 bike with an esystem bolted on. We don't even make a £350 bike, the cheapest adult bike in our range is £450.00 because like many brands, we don't sell things less than this because the market is dominated by halfords / tesco / etc etc.

This is the eRace p 29er

FLI Distribution - 2014 KTM eRACE P 29

It's a high quality frame and group set, the equivalent bike is. The equivalent bike is the ultra sport, which is our top end alu frame.

FLI Distribution - 2014 KTM Ultra Sport 29

Hope that clears things up a bit.

 

[flecc]

Hope that clears things up a bit.

It does indeed, and it also adds another high spec item, a supplier with a genuine pride in their product, which is always a potential customer benefit.

 

[RobF]

The rough equivalent Rose trekking bike to my Rose ebike is about £1,300.

So the extra for the Bosch system - including the bigger battery - was about £1,200.

 

[banbury frank]

Hi Take the bike below fit a 750 watt bafang crank drive with a 48 volt 10AH battery 500 WH

£2950

Now thats a BIKE


Chain Reaction Cycles | MTB | City-Räder| Triathlon | Laufsport

Frank

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

The rough equivalent Rose trekking bike to my Rose ebike is about £1,300.

So the extra for the Bosch system - including the bigger battery - was about £1,200.

Rose are selling bikes at trade price, by missing out a dealer network in the uk, so you have no uk support. whilst this isnt a problem for many consumers, who know what they want and how to service it, it does have implications to the industry. If discussions in the bike industry in the uk, go the same way as Italy has done, you will find the brands like rose, canyon, yt industries and others that attempt to miss out cycle shops, won't be accepted by bike shops for servicing or trade ins. The argument is why should they support brands that are trying to miss them out of the chain.

We could have gone down this route and sell. Ktms direct to consumers in the uk, but we value the network of bicycle shops in the uk and wanted to give them the chance to sell our bikes. If bike shops disappear from towns, the new blood in the industry won't have a place to learn the trade, young cyclists won't get their first sponsorship and Saturday jobs, and customers won't be able to get the chain they need to ride to work next day etc etc.

So whilst saving a few quid and getting something like a rose does benefit the individual, you aren't supporting the cycle industry in the uk at all, and that had implications for lots of people. How the industry copes with this over the next few years will be very interesting.

Sorry that's a total deviation from your point, it's just something that is often discussed in the industry so I thought I'd raise it when you mentioned rose.

 

[trex]

...
So whilst saving a few quid and getting something like a rose does benefit the individual, you aren't supporting the cycle industry in the uk at all, and that had implications for lots of people. How the industry copes with this over the next few years will be very interesting.

Sorry that's a total deviation from your point, it's just something that is often discussed in the industry so I thought I'd raise it when you mentioned rose.

it's not saving a few quid on dealers' margin is it?
Buyingt the bike through dealership does not guarantee better service (I refer to the recent thread about bh), high specs don't mean easier to look after (see wissy's thread
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/16172-puncture.html)
wissy bought one of yourbikes:
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/14073-ktm-macina-dual-hs-eagle-has-landed.html

Hd KTM sold her the bike directly, she might have received better support from the specialists.

 

[RobF]

Rose are selling bikes at trade price, by missing out a dealer network in the uk, so you have no uk support. whilst this isnt a problem for many consumers, who know what they want and how to service it, it does have implications to the industry. If discussions in the bike industry in the uk, go the same way as Italy has done, you will find the brands like rose, canyon, yt industries and others that attempt to miss out cycle shops, won't be accepted by bike shops for servicing or trade ins. The argument is why should they support brands that are trying to miss them out of the chain.

We could have gone down this route and sell. Ktms direct to consumers in the uk, but we value the network of bicycle shops in the uk and wanted to give them the chance to sell our bikes. If bike shops disappear from towns, the new blood in the industry won't have a place to learn the trade, young cyclists won't get their first sponsorship and Saturday jobs, and customers won't be able to get the chain they need to ride to work next day etc etc.

So whilst saving a few quid and getting something like a rose does benefit the individual, you aren't supporting the cycle industry in the uk at all, and that had implications for lots of people. How the industry copes with this over the next few years will be very interesting.

Sorry that's a total deviation from your point, it's just something that is often discussed in the industry so I thought I'd raise it when you mentioned rose.

A point of view fairly made, but far from correct.

Rose service is known to be top notch - a member on here had a chain fouling the chain guard and Rose took the bike back to Germany, no questions asked.

The member was impressed, which says it all.

Of course, I have no personal experience of Rose after-sales because my bike has not gone wrong, but I think that tells us something about the Rose business model.

They don't sell cheap bikes or bikes cheap - the few discounts on the site are small.

I believe what they reckon to do is sell quality, so very few returns, which means the ones they do get they can afford to look after the customer.

Your point about me not supporting UK bike shops is even wider of the mark.

I've spent - and continue to spend - a tidy sum on bits and pieces, cycling gear, and servicing with UK retailers.

I am also not a cheapskate customer - I don't expect the bike mechanic to fiddle with my bike for hours for ten bob.

The owner of my local bike shop tells me the money is in repairs and accessories, so he couldn't give a stuff where the customer bought the bike.

 

[Cyclezee]

Your Rose sounds interesting Rob and you are clearly impressed.

If you don't mind me asking which model do you have and how much did it cost?

They send me catalogues from time to time which are size of a telephone directory.

 

[RobF]

Your Rose sounds interesting Rob and you are clearly impressed.

If you don't mind me asking which model do you have and how much did it cost?

They send me catalogues from time to time which are size of a telephone directory.

The bike is a Rose Xtrawatt trekking bike with the ordinary 250w motor and bigger Bosch battery.

It cost just on £2,500.

Can't provide a link because there are no Rose ebikes in the catalogue at present, due I'm guessing to the supply problems with the Bosch motor.

This bike is an almost identical unpowered version, although I have an Alfine 11 gear hub:

ROSE BLACK CREEK-5 TREKKING MEN 2014 offers at the cycling shop Rose Bikes UK



PS: Your question enables me to continue my rant about me not supporting the UK bike industry.

My other ebike is a Brompton Nano, the Brommie was bought from a UK bike shop, and the kit was UK supplied and fitted, and I've also spent money - in the UK - on spares and servicing for the bike.

 

[Cyclezee]

Thanks for the info Rob, you have nice and rare machine as far as the UK is concerned.

Please don't feel inhibited about having a rant.......... surely that is what the forum is for, to seek out information, get advice, give advice, share knowledge, acquire knowledge, write total rubbish, read total rubbish, have a bit of fun and rant until your heart is content

 

[jackhandy]

The owner of my local bike shop tells me the money is in repairs and accessories, so he couldn't give a stuff where the customer bought the bike.

Absolutely my impression of our local bike shops.

Can you see any mechanic refusing to work on, or trade in, a Carrera or boardman because it was bought from Halfords?

Damn good way of going out of business quick-smart.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

it's not saving a few quid on dealers' margin is it?
Buyingt the bike through dealership does not guarantee better service (I refer to the recent thread about bh), high specs don't mean easier to look after (see wissy's thread
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/16172-puncture.html)
wissy bought one of yourbikes:
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/14073-ktm-macina-dual-hs-eagle-has-landed.html

Hd KTM sold her the bike directly, she might have received better support from the specialists.

We have I believe gone above and beyond what most shops would do in relation to the bike above. I am not sure what more a specialist could offer? They would still liaise with Bosch and relevant component manufacturers.

We provide a high level of service regardless of where our customers are located. We are always willing to learn so please let me know what we could do better? My colleague leads on the mechanical side thus I will only comment on queries which are relevant to my knowledge and experience or after speaking to my colleague.

Personally I can understand when people buy abroad, if you are competent mechanically then should problems arise then the can be overcome remotely.

We offer a loan bike in the event of a warranty issue and free collection from mainland UK. Regardless of where customers are located we always endeavour to provide best service and as I have mentioned always willing to listen to suggestions.

 

[jdallan]

A point of view fairly made, but far from correct.

Rose service is known to be top notch - a member on here had a chain fouling the chain guard and Rose took the bike back to Germany, no questions asked.

The member was impressed, which says it all.

Of course, I have no personal experience of Rose after-sales because my bike has not gone wrong, but I think that tells us something about the Rose business model.

They don't sell cheap bikes or bikes cheap - the few discounts on the site are small.

I believe what they reckon to do is sell quality, so very few returns, which means the ones they do get they can afford to look after the customer.

Your point about me not supporting UK bike shops is even wider of the mark.

I've spent - and continue to spend - a tidy sum on bits and pieces, cycling gear, and servicing with UK retailers.

I am also not a cheapskate customer - I don't expect the bike mechanic to fiddle with my bike for hours for ten bob.

The owner of my local bike shop tells me the money is in repairs and accessories, so he couldn't give a stuff where the customer bought the bike.

I think I'm the member referred to and I was indeed impressed by the service from Rose. When I
contacted them about what turned out to be the chainguard problem, their immediate and unprompted
reaction was to arrange the bike's return to Germany. They also shipped to me a new bike-box for the
return as I had used the original delivery box when sending off my previous bike to its new owner. Apart
from the chainguard, they also carried out a first inspection and service, upgraded the BionX system and repaired console wires which I had managed to pull out when packing the bike in the box. No charge was made by Rose for any of this contrary to what I had expected. Phone calls to Rose are also free. I have no doubt that an efficient service had been done as, among other things, the derailleur gears, which had been becoming a bit less precise during changes before sending the bike back, were (and remain) extremely smooth and slick in operation.

With regard to my particular bike - the Rose Black Creek E6 - I am aware that some members dislike the
BionX system for various reasons, not least the cost, and I can understand this. However the bike suits me and my requirements perfectly and I have no regrets about buying it. It is a beautiful machine with great performance and is a pleasure to ride.

As far as using local dealers is concerned, I have also used my local bike shop for minor matters, tube
purchase, etc., and they are only too happy to get the business regardless of where the bike was bought.

I have also experienced customer service locally which falls far short of Rose standards. My wife's new
ebike was bought locally soon after I bought the Rose and the service was such that unless we have a
warranty issue we won't go back. Only last week we took her bike to a local bike shop for adjustments
which should have been done by the dealer however we have no faith in him and will take our business elsewhere.

 

[trex]

The present distribution model is not good.
It's inefficient and wasteful because it relies on the dealers for technical support. It loads the dealers with too much responsibility.
An average e-bike shop may stock as many as 10 brands (like a few I visited in France), there is just not enough physical space, staff and training for efficient support. Only importers or distributors can do this.
In my model, the dealer provides customers with pre-sale support: Q&A, demo, finance, delivery.
The distributor deals with brand marketing and after sale technical support.
The customer registers for warranty and service with the distributor.
If you, the customer, need technical assistance, eg adjusting your Magura HS11 pads, would you rather talk to somebody who knows your bike inside out or someone who answers questions about a hundred different models every day? By the way, watching youtube to learn how to adjust hydraulic brakes is risky,
If a part needs replacing, the distributor sends the part to the the nearest dealer or LBS to effect the replacement. Again, it will save time and money.
The dealers may get a smaller cut but no hassle. A number of importers do this already but not the brands in this thread.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

Trex is a nice idea but can not see it happening.

We are always happy to take phone calls from customers with queries.

The biggest reason I can not see this happening is cost, people already think prices are too high. Also most distributers are probably not large enough to do this and am sure they would not do it outside of office hours e.g. Saturdays.

Distributers for Bosch bikes do not carry spare parts which is why us and others keep stock themselves. We also stock other parts which our distributers would not stock.

We have had the occasional technical issue with bikes bought a fair distance from us and have normally managed to solve these remotely.

Re Rose sounds like good service. Whether you are local or not people will not go back if you do not provide a good service.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I wasn't expressing a narrow view, I was expressing one based on years and years of working in the bike trade, travelling around the world visiting trade shows and spending time with lots of dealers and customers. I stand by my statement that any ebike for less that £400 will be rubbish, and won't represent good value for the end consumer for a number of reasons.

What are the reasons? You can't make a statement like that without justifying it.

 

[103Alex1]

That's simply not true... The macina cross is our cheapest ebike and it comes with a high end spec, things like Shimano Deore disc brakes, an xt shadow rear mech, shimano slx hubs, suntour forks, ritchey headset etc etc.

You can view the full spec here:

FLI Distribution - 2014 KTM MACINA CROSS 10 300Wh

The equivalent non ebike is the life action, which is £849.99

KTM Life Action - 2014 | KTM Hybrids Ladies from £400 at Damian Harris Bikes, Cardiff | UK online bike shop

It's the same with the Panasonic systems, the eRace p for instance, is most definitely not a sub £500 bike with an esystem bolted on. We don't even make a £350 bike, the cheapest adult bike in our range is £450.00 because like many brands, we don't sell things less than this because the market is dominated by halfords / tesco / etc etc.

This is the eRace p 29er

FLI Distribution - 2014 KTM eRACE P 29

It's a high quality frame and group set, the equivalent bike is. The equivalent bike is the ultra sport, which is our top end alu frame.

FLI Distribution - 2014 KTM Ultra Sport 29

Hope that clears things up a bit.

I can come some way towards you in that the specs are better than some at that price point, but the Bosch on the Macina Cross has the small 8Ah battery so that knocks a bit off the share of SP attributed.

As regards the cheapest adult bike in the range being £450, the Life-One is under £400 for a 2014 model and looking at the spec I would hazard end of season this would drop further to around £350 if stock remained :

KTM Life One - 2014 | KTM Hybrids from £400 at Damian Harris Bikes, Cardiff | UK online bike shop

Same forks/headset as the Macina Cross. The latter has otherwise predominantly mid-range components, albeit not budget (a full M615 groupset including brakes specified on the 2014 Macina Cross retails for £275 now as a bike / upgrade package so lose the crankset and swap for a KTM-own Bosch compatible 'fit' and that sort of amount should comfortably accommodate a slightly upgraded rear derailleur hanger in a 'built bike' context)

Shimano Deore M615 Double Groupset | Merlin Cycles

The seatpost, saddle, wheelset, cranks and bars are 'KTM own'. The Macina frame equivalent is unspecified but even the Ultrasport top-end frame on the eRace is £189 at inflated 'frame-only 'prices so KTM ally frames are not in fairness really 'high end' components :

2013 KTM Ultra Sport 29er MTB Bike Frame 6061 triple butted aluminium 17" & 19" | eBay

In ther words, given the The eRace is £500 more expensive than the Macina, you'd probably expect the best frame KTM can offer for that price.

Assembled bikes almost always work out considerably cheaper than building them up so I am still somewhat skeptical about the realistic underlying bike 'positioning' being fairly put at around £850. So whilst in KTM's case the underlying bike is worth more than a £399 KTM-equivalent, I'm inclined to think harder about the quoted price for the Life Action (!) than to concede the underlying bike is really worth more than about £500 - £550 tops. Which coupled with the small battery dropping the Bosch-attributable element by a couple of hundred quid, change my feelings about the combo a bit - but in all conscience not by that much.