What cable required

[billyboya]

Another thing to check - those additional thick wires in your img1720.jpg are I think quite important. I think hub motors are WYE or Star wound, rather than Delta. So I think those are the other ends of the phase windings, and should be connected all three together. Without that connection, the motor won't run.

Nothing else connects to there, just the three big wires, and then they need to be insulated and somehow made secure out of the way of moving parts.

In the picture your yellow labels show a green, a grey and a covered in red sheath cable. Each of those is the other end of the green, yellow and blue phase wires. So if you use the resistance scale (any one, the readings will be close to zero) of the meter, you should be able to measure a very low resistance between each of the phase wires and one of the those extras.

If I have got this right, then those three wires need soldering together with a good big joint, and then you ought to have a working motor.

When you say resistance scale what or where is that on a meter. I just tried continuing on each phase wire and yes they do in order link up to those 3 other wires in yellow circles so are you saying to join all 3 of those broken wires together with that red tape on and that grey one too

 

[matthewslack]

When you say resistance scale what or where is that on a meter. I just tried continuing on each phase wire and yes they do in order link up to those 3 other wires in yellow circles so are you saying to join all 3 of those broken wires together with that red tape on and that grey one too

Resistance scales are the ones where if you touch the meter probes together, it reads zero, and with them apart it reads whatever value they chose to mean open circuit. Often that is a 1 in the left most digit of the display.

It sounds like you have made some progress - so you have established that there is low resistance between green on the left and green on the right, and similar for the other two.

Because all the six ends are separate at the moment, you should find open circuit between the left side three wires. I.e. green to yellow, yellow to blue, blue to green all show no connection.

So yes, the three other ends marked in yellow in the image need to be soldered together. That joins the three windings in the WYE configuration which is what I think they are supposed to be.

When that is done, there will low resistance between all of the ends.

When that is done, and the new cable is threaded through the axle and connected, and the motor is back together, you should have a working motor.

 

[billyboya]

Resistance scales are the ones where if you touch the meter probes together, it reads zero, and with them apart it reads whatever value they chose to mean open circuit. Often that is a 1 in the left most digit of the display.

It sounds like you have made some progress - so you have established that there is low resistance between green on the left and green on the right, and similar for the other two.

Because all the six ends are separate at the moment, you should find open circuit between the left side three wires. I.e. green to yellow, yellow to blue, blue to green all show no connection.

So yes, the three other ends marked in yellow in the image need to be soldered together. That joins the three windings in the WYE configuration which is what I think they are supposed to be.

When that is done, there will low resistance between all of the ends.

When that is done, and the new cable is threaded through the axle and connected, and the motor is back together, you should have a working motor.

Hi ok I will join those 3 loose wires together, solder I mean. would heat shrink tube be ok to place over all 3 once joined

you should find open circuit between the left side three wires. I.e. green to yellow, yellow to blue, blue to green all show no connection.

I dont know what you mean what you said above. you mean phase wires yeah. how do you test for open circuit

Btw I forgot to mention, but the previous owner of this electric moped, had fitted another cable containing 3 wires to motor, which wasn't attached to anything at controller end. so I expect thats why those 3 loose wire are for. I expect he was trying to make moped faster

What I did with those 3 phase wires I checked them against the other 3 loose wires to right what I circled for continuity. when I held probe on the green phase wire then touched the 1st green wire on right it beeped so I knew then thats end of green phase wire, then again tried blue phase and touched that grey wire again it beeped and last touched yellow phase wire and that last one on right that also beeped so like you said they are the ends of phase wires

Another point I like to make is when I touch 1st phase wire then hold probe on corresponding end of that wire if I touch the copper wire part it wont beep but will if I touch the wire bit what's been soldered is that normal then, so when I join all 3 together do I solder the 3 copper wires or the cables themselves

 

[matthewslack]

Hi ok I will join those 3 loose wires together, solder I mean. would heat shrink tube be ok to place over all 3 once joined



I dont know what you mean what you said above. you mean phase wires yeah. how do you test for open circuit

Btw I forgot to mention, but the previous owner of this electric moped, had fitted another cable containing 3 wires to motor, which wasn't attached to anything at controller end. so I expect thats why those 3 loose wire are for. I expect he was trying to make moped faster

What I did with those 3 phase wires I checked them against the other 3 loose wires to right what I circled for continuity. when I held probe on the green phase wire then touched the 1st green wire on right it beeped so I knew then thats end of green phase wire, then again tried blue phase and touched that grey wire again it beeped and last touched yellow phase wire and that last one on right that also beeped so like you said they are the ends of phase wires

Ok, that is another explanation for the extra wires!

Do that same testing method between the three left side wires, before you join the right side wires. So green to blue etc, if they do not beep then the other ends are not connected, if they do beep then they are.

Here is an image of a cheap multimeter. The ohms ranges on the left are the resistance ranges.

 

[matthewslack]

Ok, that is another explanation for the extra wires!

Do that same testing method between the three left side wires, before you join the right side wires. So green to blue etc, if they do not beep then the other ends are not connected, if they do beep then they are.

Here is an image of a cheap multimeter. The ohms ranges on the left are the resistance ranges.

View attachment 45420

Forgot to add, if those right hand wires are already connected, then you don't need to change anything. But let's get that far first!

 

[wheeliepete]

So yes, the three other ends marked in yellow in the image need to be soldered together. That joins the three windings in the WYE configuration which is what I think they are supposed to be.

Interested to understand this, not come across this setup before. I'm curious as to why these extra winding takeoffs appear to have originally been seperate and exited the motor spindle. Could they have been used as secondary phase wires to produce a lower powered/speed motor? This would maybe explain why the bike, when it was running, was alot faster than it was meant to be and the second cable running from motor to controller which had been cut/disconnected.

 

[billyboya]

Ok, that is another explanation for the extra wires!

Do that same testing method between the three left side wires, before you join the right side wires. So green to blue etc, if they do not beep then the other ends are not connected, if they do beep then they are.

Here is an image of a cheap multimeter. The ohms ranges on the left are the resistance ranges.

View attachment 45420

Im now a bit confused as you say green phase to blue well that wont beep as its not the end of that green phase wire the 1st one on right is that green wire end.

no I have not as yet joined up those 3 wires on right

When I tested phase wires for continutiy to see what ends go to what phase wires on left. I held probe 1st on green phase wire then touched the 1st wire on right which was on left of those other 2 which is green it beeped then 2nd phase wire blue to middle or grey wire on right it beeped, then yellow phase wire to far right loose wire again that beeped. but how can it beep if you say touch green phase and blue wire on right/grey or are you just on about touching the phase green and phase blue


this is the meter I am using also got 1 like yours but it don't say continuity

I think what you are saying is join all 3 wires on right 1st then do green and blue phase wires then it will beep as just tried by clamping those 3 wires on right not soldered just to test, and yes green and blue phase wires beeped plus blue yellow etc

 

[billyboya]

Interested to understand this, not come across this setup before. I'm curious as to why these extra winding takeoffs appear to have originally been seperate and exited the motor spindle. Could they have been used as secondary phase wires to produce a lower powered/speed motor? This would maybe explain why the bike, when it was running, was alot faster than it was meant to be and the second cable running from motor to controller which had been cut/disconnected.

Yes as I did mention this before, I had managed to do 39 km/h 24 mph on a straight road, but according to E-Rider the max is 25 km/h 15 mph so yes who ever had moped before me had done something to motor, as there was a extra cable from back wheel what had 3 wires brown green/yellow and blue but it wasnt attached to anything at controller end, just stuck down behind controller with duck tape

 

[billyboya]

Forgot to add, if those right hand wires are already connected, then you don't need to change anything. But let's get that far first!

so is it now ok to join those right 3 wires

Well I have now joined them as I think this is what you mean. I will of course place some shrink wrap over end

 

[matthewslack]

Interested to understand this, not come across this setup before. I'm curious as to why these extra winding takeoffs appear to have originally been seperate and exited the motor spindle. Could they have been used as secondary phase wires to produce a lower powered/speed motor? This would maybe explain why the bike, when it was running, was alot faster than it was meant to be and the second cable running from motor to controller which had been cut/disconnected.

It looks like the three ends that should be joined together inside the motor have been separated and additional wires taken from them to the outside. That makes both ends of the three windings accessible for experimentation.

My interest is in getting the motor running again in its intended setup. So joining back together those wires, removing any superfluous extra length and putting it back together.

It is good to have a reason for something not working, as that gives hope that it can be fixed.

The easiest way to more speed us simply more volts, and a controller that can manage the increased voltage and ideally limit current to a reasonable value.

If you want to read more about messing with the windings, which I think is not a useful thing to do with this kind of motor, look up WYE DELTA and you will see diagrams like this:



Commonplace with the starting of AC induction motors before the introduction of variable speed drives.

 

[wheeliepete]

Thanks Matthew, I had a Google after posting and I think this explains having 6 phase wires for different voltage/current. as you say, much easier to join the wires inside the motor and as a bonus to OP, the new cable should easily pass through the hole in the axle being alot thinner.

Three-Wire vs. Six-Wire Three-Phase Motors - Technical Articles

Three-phase motors with three or six wires have limited options for wiring, but are easier to use and have important roles to play. Learn the difference between three- and six-wire three-phase motors for low and high voltage applications.

control.com

 

[billyboya]

It looks like the three ends that should be joined together inside the motor have been separated and additional wires taken from them to the outside. That makes both ends of the three windings accessible for experimentation.

My interest is in getting the motor running again in its intended setup. So joining back together those wires, removing any superfluous extra length and putting it back together.

It is good to have a reason for something not working, as that gives hope that it can be fixed.

The easiest way to more speed us simply more volts, and a controller that can manage the increased voltage and ideally limit current to a reasonable value.

If you want to read more about messing with the windings, which I think is not a useful thing to do with this kind of motor, look up WYE DELTA and you will see diagrams like this:

View attachment 45424

Commonplace with the starting of AC induction motors before the introduction of variable speed drives.

So am I ok now what I have done by joining those 3 loose wires, and this test do you mean test green and blue phase wires for a beep then yellow and blue and yellow and green for beep then all I need to do now is when new cable arrives is join up the 5 sensor wires and the 3 phase wires

 

[billyboya]

Thanks Matthew, I had a Google after posting and I think this explains having 6 phase wires for different voltage/current. as you say, much easier to join the wires inside the motor and as a bonus to OP, the new cable should easily pass through the hole in the axle being alot thinner.

Three-Wire vs. Six-Wire Three-Phase Motors - Technical Articles

Three-phase motors with three or six wires have limited options for wiring, but are easier to use and have important roles to play. Learn the difference between three- and six-wire three-phase motors for low and high voltage applications.

control.com

Yes regarding the cable passing through the hole in axle well god knows how previous owner managed to fit 3 thick phase wires 3 thick add on cable wires plus 5 thin sensor wires too.

 

[billyboya]

So Matthew am I good to go now, when new cable arrives. to join up to motor wires. also is it possible if I could use a Thumb throttle rather than a grip type. as I would prefer thumb type. with a battery indicator and key. but there is only 3 wires on a hand grip one. so where or how do you wire up a thumb one

cant thank you enough for all this help

do this look ok. should I fasten it down with cable tie

 

[matthewslack]

so is it now ok to join those right 3 wires

Have a look at the diagram just posted. I think originally your motor was connected like the left hand image, three coils all joined a single point, and the three phase wires connected to ths other end of the three coils.

I'm trying to guide you back to that arrangement, because it should work. It will not necessarily do more than 25km/ hour though.

You reply faster than I can type!

So it sounds like you have now joined those three right hand ends? If so, you should have low resistance or continuity between all of the wire ends I.e. the three phase wires and the ones joint. Pick any two and measure, it should beep.

So yes, tidy up, make sure the moving parts cannot touch anything, connect the 8 wires of the new cable, put it together and you should have a working motor...

 

[wheeliepete]

Yes regarding the cable passing through the hole in axle well god knows how previous owner managed to fit 3 thick phase wires 3 thick add on cable wires plus 5 thin sensor wires too.

I think all that wiring was factory fitted to reduce speed of bike to legal UK limit with the option to increase it by reconfig. for other markets like US using the same motor.

 

[matthewslack]

So Matthew am I good to go now, when new cable arrives. to join up to motor wires. also is it possible if I could use a Thumb throttle rather than a grip type. as I would prefer thumb type. with a battery indicator and key. but there is only 3 wires on a hand grip one. so where or how do you wire up a thumb one

cant thank you enough for all this help

Once you are outside the reassembled motor, my experience ends! Happily, throttles and controllers are well known to many others. I just know a bit about motors from other applications.

My fingers are crossed!

 

[billyboya]

Once you are outside the reassembled motor, my experience ends! Happily, throttles and controllers are well known to many others. I just know a bit about motors from other applications.

My fingers are crossed!

Well I cant thank you enough for all this, and yes I will check later regarding a thumb throttle, as I would prefer one with a battery indicator, plus a key. but don't know where the 4th wire in throttle go to at the controller. Your help same as others here are most appreciated. this moped has been out of action now for 3 months. But not too bothered about that as its been far too cold anyway.

All the best Matthew and many thanks happy new year to you keep safe.

I will let you know if it all runs ok once its all back together