Very worried

[103Alex1]

Spinalot, it isn't actually that hard once you've tried a few times. If you are right handed, then keep your spanner nearby to pick up with that hand. I don't have my bike here right now so have to try remember what I do ...

Just use your left hand (with axle nuts just tight enough on both sides to still be moveable) to pull the tyre towards you. I kneel down when doing this. Put your fingers through the spokes if you want to get a decent grip. Be firm. Then when chain is tight pick up spanner & do up each nut progressively till the wheel holds firm. You can still reset the wheel before tightening. Remember which way they turn before you start - else you'll wind up loosening the one you just got right !

On the tyre/mudguard clearance, I have masses of clearance (think the frame might be larger or longer on C11 so not an issue for me). But if I had that problem I'd just deflate the tyre and pump up when wheel set. It only takes a minute or so after all.

I tried to get QR wheels out of my mum's small MTB - wouldn't come out without removing the v-brakes or deflating the tyres as tyres too wide to go through the brakes. Bikes do have their quirks !

Before you get to the next quirk btw ... hub gears mean you can't clean chain by rotating pedals backwards with chain cleaner device clamped. So unless you have someone hold the back wheel up you need the bike up on a stand ideally to clean the chain. I wound up buying one - other methods all well & good but on a heavy eBike it was the obvious solution. You need a decent one. Can give you a link if you need it to one which works great.

I would do this:
Pump up the tyre then sit on the rear rack. Your weight wil keep the chain under tension.
Use your left hand to center the wheel, use the other hand to tighten up the nuts.

You'll never get that wheel back on right in a month of Sundays unless the bike is upside down or up on a bike stand. So not sure how you'd sit on the rack !


I've also read the comments about local dealers and once again smiled - many of us are nowhere near a dealer - and I don't have a car either. Plus no local dealers anyway within a walking radius so completely pointless worrying how far they are away. Just learn to maintain yourself.

 

[dmcgoldrick]

I have had my new Kalkhoff for just over a week now and the alfine 8 speed hub has started making grinding noises. It seems to happen more in the higher gears one through four and is intermittent in nature but in first through third it is constant. I say grinding perhaps a better description would be grating. I have only ridden on the roads and only once in the rain. I went off road once on the Trans Pennine trail which is a "hard pack" type of surface with a few muddy spots and the odd puddle you have no choice but to ride through. These were only tyre thickness deep certainly not axle deep!
I can feel the grating though the peddles and whole bike. I have adjusted the cable many times making sure to get it into the two marks lined up position. I have on purpose taken it out of alignment and wind it back in again. To no avail.
Can anyone shed light on what is happening. I read on some forums that some users say they take time to bed in but this grating/grinding seems to be getting worse and it certainly was not there on the first few rides out. It was smooth and silent. I cannot believe a part so well made could fail so fast. The only thing I can think is that when I first got it, some may remember my earlier post, about the gears slipping due to the marks not being lined up, is that something broke inside and is now mashing up the workings
I shall be emailing 50Cycles and see what they say but I was hoping to get some idea of the problem or I am worrying over nothing.

send it back to be sorted and ask for replacement bike until fixed....this should all be under warranty and collection and redelivery at their expense for such a new expensive bike.....this will be a test of how good the sellers after sales service really is.......
regards

 

[Spinalot]

Thanks for all your help everyone. I will hopefully hear from 50Cycles tomorrow and can get to the bottom of the grinding noise, I Will also hopefully get help with the wheel removal trouble I am having.

Once again, thanks

 

[Old_Dave]

Just seen the piccys of the drop outs and clearance between wheel and mud guard.....

Not wishing to stick my head over the parapet... but

It's as though the wheel is to big for the frame, one can't be expected to deflate the tyre to remove the wheel, or all they all like that and it's a 'feature' by design ?

However, as narrower tyres can have a smaller diameter, maybe wider tyres have been fitted than the frame was designed for?


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[103Alex1]

send it back to be sorted and ask for replacement bike until fixed....this should all be under warranty and collection and redelivery at their expense for such a new expensive bike.....this will be a test of how good the sellers after sales service really is.......
regards

Up to a point if that's the case but you have to be fair - if you go remove a wheel and don't get it back right (the grating is usually gears slipping inside the hub - which happens on my hub gears when chain is out of tension due to wheel not put back right and especially so if you pedal too hard for the gear you're in - dead giveaway wheel has slipped) it's unlikely due to being sold a duff bike - it's down to user needing to fit wheel and adjust right after removal. I didn't expect 50 cycles to pay for that when it happened to me. I went to LBS first and gave them Matt's direct number at 50 cycles' for assistance - which they chose not to use and "do it their way" ... at considerable consequential expense to me .

I just voted with my feet and LBS haven't had any more work off me.

 

[Spinalot]

Just seen the piccys of the drop outs and clearance between wheel and mud guard.....

Not wishing to stick my head over the parapet... but

It's as though the wheel is to big for the frame, one can't be expected to deflate the tyre to remove the wheel, or all they all like that and it's a 'feature' by design ?

However, as narrower tyres can have a smaller diameter, maybe wider tyres have been fitted than the frame was designed for?


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The wheels are the right size I believe and the tyre is a standard commuter thin type. Not like the big apples on my recumbent. There is absolutely no way of getting the wheel out without deflating the tyre. With the tyre inflated I am about 10-12mm short of getting past the drop out as the wheel comes up against the mudguard. I find this design very frustrating. Why they did not make it a horizontal "pull the wheel out" backwards type is beyond my limited comprehension.
I wanted a simple life of getting on my bike and NOT worrying I never get a puncture. As it is now I cannot remove the back wheel and will have to try and fix a puncture with the wheel still attached. Doable but NOT a happy thought.

An even worse thought is having to cut the drop outs down to get my wheel out if I ever need to change the worn out tyre! Ludicrous.
I am going to go in the garage tomorrow and try to work it out. I must be missing something, I cannot beleive I have been sold a bike that you cannot get the damn wheel off!

 

[Scimitar]

Strikes me as a ******* design. I would modify this way.
Pull the axle right back in the dropouts so it's hard against the stops. Tighten the axle nuts. Fit a chain with a bit of droop; not too much. Fit a chain tensioner as shown above.
Sorted.

 

[103Alex1]

Shame you didn't plump for the C11 instead (only kidding ....)

Not being funny but if you get a puncture then presumably the tyre will be deflated anyway so you'll have no trouble getting the wheel off to fix it ?

I fitted Marathon Plus tyres and Protek Max inner tubes. Never had a puncture to worry about since getting the bike. Either I got lucky or the tyre and tube are doing a grand job.

Don't really understand though - even if you could get wheel off without worrying about fitting back at the side of road (which I understand - wouldn't be the best as with most eBikes so fit puncture-resistant tyres), I can't understand why it's such a problem to simply let air out of the tyres to remove the wheel on the rare occasions you'd have to do that. It takes under a minute to pump a tyre back up (or less if you use a CO2 cartridge short-cut).

If you stick at it you'll soon work out how to refit the back wheel. I'd never changed a bike tyre in my life before getting the Agattu. All bikes when ridden regularly need regular basic maintenance to keep them running well so it's a really good investment learning how to do it. Like most things, once you know, you know - and it ceases to be a big deal. Alternative is pay a LBS to do it all for you and wear the bills and inconvenience.

More expensive and better performance (I'm talking unpowered too here) usually comes with more maintenance / special tools and equipment etc. Just like having a fancy car. Think how much maintenance a Ferrari needs as an analogy of the principles. No matter how much you pay for a bike it'll need work and looking after - there's no such thing as a 'ride-and-forget' bicycle. But I appreciate your frustration and I worked through all the same emotions till I realized how much I loved the bike - and accepted its needs. Especially after going into LBS and looking at some of the junk on sale at £1000-£1500... without electrics. . You will get through this and all will be teething problems soon enough.

 

[Spinalot]

I hope so Alex, I hope so.
I suppose I am a little "butthurt" because I loved the bike and it is frustrating me over such a simple thing as removing the wheel, adjusting the brakes and making the clearance more on the mudguard. The grinding sound coming from the hub is also ****ing me off. It feels a little like buyers remorse. (Buyer's remorse is the sense of regret after having made a purchase. It is frequently associated with the purchase of an expensive item such as a car or house. It may stem from fear of making the wrong choice, guilt over extravagance, or a suspicion of having been overly influenced by the seller)

I am feeling annoyed too as I have been around bikes and the like for years. I rode as a dispatch rider in London in the late 80's, 70 miles a day, every day. I am well used to tinkering. My recumbent I did all the servicing on and I am finding little things that should be simple to be very annoying. This is my first time with a bike that has a 8 speed hub gear. My only experience with hub gears prior to this is a Sturmey Archer 3 speed on my old Raleigh chopper in the 70's.
These things work out in the end I suppose. Just have a sour taste in my mouth at present.

 

[103Alex1]

Yeah I understand - and in a way makes me feel a whole lot better as I felt completely inept and useless having no bike experience at all before having to contend with exactly the issues you are laying out thinking all bikes involved the sort of skills and experience you need for this one to work on them. It only sank in when I bought the Trek and realized what an absolute doddle it was to work on mechanically in comparison.

I've pretty much forgotten the pain though, because there is no denying the quality of the bikes. Hub gears and fancy Magura hydraulic brakes both together = not your usual combo, but that's because you got a good quality product that isn't just any regular bike.

You just need to learn the relevant skills appropriate for this one and it'll become as easy as the rest you've been around. Just think on it as more skills in your armoury for the future. I shelled out only a few hundred less than you spent on parts and a 2nd hand top-end MTB which turned into nearly 2 months' work before I even got to ride the bike whilst I learned every skill from scratch and nearly gave up several times along the way it was so hard compared to what I was braced for. But now I know every inch of it, every quirk about it that was conquered and actually appreciate just how bl**dy great the end product really is.

As many others said to me many times - nothing worth having comes easy. Money alone cannot buy it. The grinding sound is gears slipping in the hub. Plain and simple I am 95% sure as I had it as a result of exactly same issue. Don't ride it like that you risk damaging it internally. It is fixed by getting chain tension held right and setting your wheel properly. Also don't pedal too hard without changing up your gears - you will cause gear slip and grind. Easy does it till you work out how to get the best out of the bike and hub gears. They can be way smoother and more sensitive than a derailleur and once you work them out you'll not regret anything.

 

[Artstu]

The 8-speed hub is a bit of a faff full stop, I've cursed my friends Dahon a few times trying to do punctures. My Dahon has rear-facing dropouts and chain-guards on either side of the front ring, and a none split chain, so I'm not even sure I could get the wheel out without having to split the chain.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The 8-speed hub is a bit of a faff full stop, I've cursed my friends Dahon a few times trying to do punctures. My Dahon has rear-facing dropouts and chain-guards on either side of the front ring, and a none split chain, so I'm not even sure I could get the wheel out without having to split the chain.

Normally, after loosening the wheel nuts, you push the axle as far forward as it will go, and then you can wind the chain off the front sprocket by pulling it out of line and rotating the pedals. Then you can take it off the rear. Reverse procedure for getting it back on.

The reason the Kalkhoff and many other bikes have the angled drop-outs are so that the brakes stay in the same relative position to the rim as the chain wears and the axle moves backwards, otherwise you'd have to adjust the brakes every time you adjusted the chain tension.

 

[Old_Dave]

angled drop-outs are so that the brakes stay in the same relative position to the rim as the chain wears and the axle moves backwards

Ahhhhhhhh... thank you for that Dave, I'd overlooked that bit

 

[flecc]

Some previous Kalkhoff models with the 8 speed hubs and the Panasonic unit have used a rear chain-tensioner arm. I've no idea why this was dropped, I never heard of any problems with that arrangement.

 

[Spinalot]

Some previous Kalkhoff models with the 8 speed hubs and the Panasonic unit have used a rear chain-tensioner arm. I've no idea why this was dropped, I never heard of any problems with that arrangement.

Cost saving to them seems most likley

 

[RobF]

There is another way to tension the chain.

Pull the non-drive side of the wheel as far back into the drop-out as it will go and semi-tighten the nuts on both sides, but you want the non-drive one a little tighter.

Pull the wheel into alignment by moving it effectively from right to left - as viewed from the back of the bike.

The idea is the non-drive side gives a bit in the drop-out leaving you with an aligned wheel and a tensioned chain.

It's hard to pull the wheel straight back hard enough to tension the chain, but this method takes advantage of leverage.

 

[Spinalot]

Ok, After getting all the advice on this marvellous forum and being in contact with Matt at 50cycles, I am tentatively reporting the noise problem is fixed.
I found upon getting the wheel out (finally!) that the metal backing plate for the mudguard the paint on one end it is down to bare metal where something, either the tyre or mud carried around on the tyre has worn it away. I am not convinced it is the tyre rubbing, as although it is much closer to the guard than I would like, it is not that close. I am not convinced this was why the noise was there for the same reasons.
I think it is a simple matter of not being aligned perfectly.
So now I had to get the wheel back in! I spent ages getting the wheel in alignment with tape measures, bits of wood sellotaped to the frame at equal distances and shear luck. The chain is a little on the slack side. I can move it up and down approx 5/8" and although it should be only 1/2" it seems ok, it does not droop under its own weight or wobble side to side excessively. To be honest I was so frustrated tightening and loosening the nuts when it finally stayed perfectly central it was shear relief. Getting the gears reconnected is a frustrating faff. I am going to have to add a 2mm allen key and a pair of grips to my roadside puncture repair kit!
I have ridden up the hill outside my house in every gear without power on and the same with power. No noise!
I phoned Matt to update him and he gave me some additional tips for getting the right tension in the chain whilst tightening the cap nuts. Nice chap and very helpful.
To be fair to 50Cycles, one of their guys was on his way to Manchester for something and offered to come take a look and if it was indeed a problem with the hub, take it back to the shop and fix it for me. Thankfully that wont have to happen now.

I find hub gears to be awkward and an excessive amount of faffing is needed to simply change a tyre or mend a puncture. I am used to derailleurs where all you need is to make sure the wheel is central and Bob's your uncle.

Please do not take my problems as a reflection upon 50Cycles. When things go wrong they do their best to fix things. The original problem could have been something as simple as a nut not being at the correct tightness and my riding over a bump knocking it out of perfect alignment.
I stand by my thoughts on the poorness of the documentation by Kalkhoff though from my other thread, but this is certainly not 50Cycles fault. Maybe I should write to the boss of Kalkhoff and poke him with a pointy stick?

 

[flecc]

I find hub gears to be awkward and an excessive amount of faffing is needed to simply change a tyre or mend a puncture. I am used to derailleurs where all you need is to make sure the wheel is central and Bob's your uncle.

There's never any need to take out a rear wheel to repair a puncture. Releasing the brake if necessary and taking the tube out from the tyre on the non-chain side enables the repair to be easily completed.

Even for changing tyres and tubes with hub gears it's usually possible to just slightly remove the wheel just enough to pass in the new item without altering the gear system in any way. However, having the gear cable in-frame with inadequate free length to permit that as on a very few models does complicate matters, but that's not really a hub gear problem, more a bike design one.

 

[Artstu]

Normally, after loosening the wheel nuts, you push the axle as far forward as it will go, and then you can wind the chain off the front sprocket by pulling it out of line and rotating the pedals. Then you can take it off the rear. Reverse procedure for getting it back on.

I quite agree, that's why I made a point of mentioning the two chain guards on either side of the crank wheel, I imagine they'll make it rather difficult to do that.

 

[Artstu]

There is another way to tension the chain.

Pull the non-drive side of the wheel as far back into the drop-out as it will go and semi-tighten the nuts on both sides, but you want the non-drive one a little tighter.

Pull the wheel into alignment by moving it effectively from right to left - as viewed from the back of the bike.

The idea is the non-drive side gives a bit in the drop-out leaving you with an aligned wheel and a tensioned chain.

It's hard to pull the wheel straight back hard enough to tension the chain, but this method takes advantage of leverage.

Yes that's what I said earlier in the thread, although I didn't go into quite as much detail as you have.