So how can DVLA just say "you can register a EAPC " as it says on Gov.NI no type approval, no MOT ? It can't be a L1-ea/L1-ea because they need type approval.
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Update on N.I. e-bike regs.
- Thread starter TedG
- Start date
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They're ad libbing it, doing their own thing in defiance of EU type approval law and pedelecs law. I copy below the tail end of a mail from James Brown of the International Vehicle Standards division of the DVLA:
Although ‘Twist and Go’ cycles will require Type Approval according to the dates in EU 168/2013 the decision has been taken that cycles that have ‘Twist and Go’ capabilities up to 15.5 mph will not be considered as motor vehicles and therefore will not require registration, tax, insurance and rider licensing. Any cycle with ‘Twist and Go’ capability above this speed will be classed as a motor vehicle.
There is no change to the law with regards to age that remains in place, no person under the age of 14 may ride an EAPC.
Yours sincerely,
James Brown
That of course is for here where we have EAPC, since N.I. don't yet have an EAPC law they default to having to be registered etc, but with some exceptions like no MOTs.
I can't explain further because I can't begin to understand the mess that they've got themselves in with this in both countries. They may be relying on tha fact that usage is within each country's discretion, but that is really bending the rules.
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You know what, if it was only a mater of registering my bike, wearing a helmet and paying insurance, I would do that no problem.
I wouldn't be happy about it but I can see the logic in all of the above.
The part that I strongly object to is having to take a motorbike test!
If they could at least come up with an ebike based CBT then I would go and do that!
I imagine I would obviously have to take that test on a motorbike.....so I can legally ride my 250w e-bike which has a top speed of 15mph!
Its crazy, next they'll be saying that you need a full car license to ride an electric skateboard!
I wouldn't be happy about it but I can see the logic in all of the above.
The part that I strongly object to is having to take a motorbike test!
If they could at least come up with an ebike based CBT then I would go and do that!
I imagine I would obviously have to take that test on a motorbike.....so I can legally ride my 250w e-bike which has a top speed of 15mph!
Its crazy, next they'll be saying that you need a full car license to ride an electric skateboard!
It says on Gov.NI Twist and go does need type approval. Ignore that I didn't see the end of your post.
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Update!
Okay I just had a read on this page:
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/information-moped-riders
and this is the part that caught my eye:
"If you pass a test for a car or any of the motorcycle categories, you will also receive entitlement to ride a moped. However, a valid CBT certificate will still be required to ride a moped on the road if a full motorcycle test category has not been awarded. This moped entitlement will be shown as above (categories AM and Q)."
So because I have a full car license I only have to take a CBT?
Now hear's the question.....can I take that CBT on my Woosh Rio?
Okay I just had a read on this page:
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/information-moped-riders
and this is the part that caught my eye:
"If you pass a test for a car or any of the motorcycle categories, you will also receive entitlement to ride a moped. However, a valid CBT certificate will still be required to ride a moped on the road if a full motorcycle test category has not been awarded. This moped entitlement will be shown as above (categories AM and Q)."
So because I have a full car license I only have to take a CBT?
Now hear's the question.....can I take that CBT on my Woosh Rio?
Bloody hell, I just had a quick look for the nearest place doing CBT's in Derry. I found this joint:
http://www.learn-2-ride-motorcycle-training.co.uk/cbt.php
It's £180 for a CBT test!
Doing this on an ebike I thought it would be very similar to doing a cycling proficiency test like you did at school!
http://www.learn-2-ride-motorcycle-training.co.uk/cbt.php
It's £180 for a CBT test!
Doing this on an ebike I thought it would be very similar to doing a cycling proficiency test like you did at school!
I know, but as I've posted they can't as an EAPC since they have no EAPC law. They should be type approved as LIe-A in N.I.
That doesn't necessarily mean a CoC is needed, an application can be made for a VIN number and an SVA carried out then (single vehicle approval).
However it appears they might be just skipping that legal requirement and registering anyway. As I posted above, it's a mess. That's not unusual for pedelecs, we had a similar mess here for nearly 12 years from 10th November 2003 to 6th April 2015.
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I was just about to agree with you but I know this plan will be a slippery slope as if we agree to a regristation process in any guise we will have to remember that we will be banned from cycle lanes, towpaths, train travel etc etc as applied to mopeds.
I may be wrong but I understood that a full car licence will cover a moped.
Someone correct me as necessary.
That's different from here in the main UK. Here any motorcycle licence is ok for a 30 mph moped but only those whose car test was taken before 1st February 2001 qualifies. A car test passed after than means a moped driving test has to be taken as well as CBT.
Since N.I. rules that your Woosh is a moped, yes you can take the CBT on that. It would cause some raised eyebrows no doubt!
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It seems so according to this post from Damian.
However you need to check since that doesn't seem to match our main UK rules that I detailed above.
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I can see a pic clearly in my head of Tommie peddling like crazy to keep up with matey on his 750cc Honda, if it was SW he would be gone for dust down the nearest canal tow path along with his dongle 
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Good morning Team,
After a bit more digging I've found this page about licenses categories. So along the front of my driving license, row 9 it lists the following:
AM/A/B1/B/f/k/p/q
When I google the the definitions of these categories I find this webpage:
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/information-moped-riders
and this definition of AM:
Information for moped riders
The moped category definition changed on 19 January 2013. The European rules have now changed and because of this the category on your new driving licence will now show as AM and Q instead of the old category P.
Moped category definition
A moped (category AM) is defined as having a maximum design speed over 25km/h (15.5mph) but not exceeding 45 km/h (28 mph); or a light quadricycle with an unladen weight not more than 350kg and up to 45km/h. It has an engine capacity no greater than 50 cubic centimetres (cc) and can be moved by pedals if it was first used before 1 September 1977.
Existing driving licence holders with moped entitlement
Previously your entitlement was shown on your driving licence as category P and covered you to ride mopeds with:
Your entitlement is shown as:
The minimum age to ride a moped is 16 years and you will need to:
After a bit more digging I've found this page about licenses categories. So along the front of my driving license, row 9 it lists the following:
AM/A/B1/B/f/k/p/q
When I google the the definitions of these categories I find this webpage:
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/information-moped-riders
and this definition of AM:
Information for moped riders
The moped category definition changed on 19 January 2013. The European rules have now changed and because of this the category on your new driving licence will now show as AM and Q instead of the old category P.
Moped category definition
A moped (category AM) is defined as having a maximum design speed over 25km/h (15.5mph) but not exceeding 45 km/h (28 mph); or a light quadricycle with an unladen weight not more than 350kg and up to 45km/h. It has an engine capacity no greater than 50 cubic centimetres (cc) and can be moved by pedals if it was first used before 1 September 1977.
Existing driving licence holders with moped entitlement
Previously your entitlement was shown on your driving licence as category P and covered you to ride mopeds with:
- an engine size up to 50 cc (cylinder capacity)
- a maximum speed up to 50 kilometres per hour (km/h)
Your entitlement is shown as:
- category AM - gives you entitlement to ride mopeds with a maximum design speed over 25 km/h but not more than 45 km/h, small three wheelers (up to 50 cc and below 4 Kilowatt (kW)), and light quadricycles (unladen weight less than 350 kilograms (kg) and up to 45 km/h)
- category P - extending the above to include two or three-wheeled mopeds with a higher maximum speed of up to 50 km/h (to retain your existing entitlement)
- category Q - extending the above to include two or three-wheeled mopeds with a maximum speed up to 25 km/h (to retain your existing entitlement)
The minimum age to ride a moped is 16 years and you will need to:
- complete Compulsory Basic Training (CBT) for the relevant motorcycle category
- pass a theory test
- pass practical tests
- category AM
- category Q
So the good news is, I don't have to do my CBT, I'm already qualified to ride my bicycle! LOL
I should say that until the guy in Limavady was arrested I didn't think for one second anyone would ever be fined or have their bike confiscated. I was content to keeping ignoring the lunacy that is Northern Irish law until eventually we got in line with the rest of the UK.
Not being able to ride on cycle paths is a big deal however because I ride across the peace bridge in Derry everyday to get to work.
For those of you not familiar with Derry geography there are now 3 bridges, a road bridge at either end of the city and the pedestrian bridge with cycle path that goes right through the middle.
Taking either road bridge will be a major detour......okay I'm being dramatic, its not that major a detour, it will add about an extra mile but that's not the point!
I'm still on the fence about what to do next, but I really don't want my bike confiscated which now looks like a real possibility!
I should say that until the guy in Limavady was arrested I didn't think for one second anyone would ever be fined or have their bike confiscated. I was content to keeping ignoring the lunacy that is Northern Irish law until eventually we got in line with the rest of the UK.
Not being able to ride on cycle paths is a big deal however because I ride across the peace bridge in Derry everyday to get to work.
For those of you not familiar with Derry geography there are now 3 bridges, a road bridge at either end of the city and the pedestrian bridge with cycle path that goes right through the middle.
Taking either road bridge will be a major detour......okay I'm being dramatic, its not that major a detour, it will add about an extra mile but that's not the point!
I'm still on the fence about what to do next, but I really don't want my bike confiscated which now looks like a real possibility!
Damian's post above mentioning category Q driving licences highlights another difference from the mainland UK, amounting to a second waiver.
In both EU and UK law a twist and go pedelec sold since December 2015 is a moped requiring all the usual motorcycle stuff and at least the Q licence, just like all pedelecs in N.I. currently.
But the letter from the DVLA that I linked to in this post draws attention to our 2015 EAPC amendment that allows twist and go without being treated as a moped if type approved as an EAPC. However there is no way to do that since the government was unable to set it up under EU law.
The end result though is that anyone using a twist and go pedelec here has virtually no chance of ever being prosecuted for it, even if it was sold after December 2015. After all a police officer is unlikely to delve into the niceties of whether one is type approved or not, or even when one was sold, difficult to establish anyway since there is no registration process to establish that date.
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In both EU and UK law a twist and go pedelec sold since December 2015 is a moped requiring all the usual motorcycle stuff and at least the Q licence, just like all pedelecs in N.I. currently.
But the letter from the DVLA that I linked to in this post draws attention to our 2015 EAPC amendment that allows twist and go without being treated as a moped if type approved as an EAPC. However there is no way to do that since the government was unable to set it up under EU law.
The end result though is that anyone using a twist and go pedelec here has virtually no chance of ever being prosecuted for it, even if it was sold after December 2015. After all a police officer is unlikely to delve into the niceties of whether one is type approved or not, or even when one was sold, difficult to establish anyway since there is no registration process to establish that date.
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I passed my motorbike test in 1966.
I rode all manner of bikes including 180mph superbikes for 30 years.
I passed my car test in 1967 and have been driving ever since.
I passed my Class One HGV test in 1971 and drove all manner of artics etc until 1993 when I was forcibly retired due to an industrial accident - not my fault.
All my licences are spotlessly clean.
After this accident I owned and rode a Powabyke in England for several years without incident.
I had no idea what power it put out nor was I ever asked. It had a hand throttle and one pump of the pedals activated this feature and I could use the motor all day if I wanted without pedalling.
The power cut out around 15mph and I accepted that. It was heavy but well engineered.
When we moved back to N. Ireland in 2011 after 33 years living in England I applied for a new "card" licence and one was issued.
The categories are B, B1, BE, C1, C1E, D1, D1E.
When I questioned the apparent lack of a motorbike category I was told that they had no record of me passing a test!
This is utter rubbish as I remember how proud and relieved I was on getting THAT vital slip of paper.
I suspect my HGV category has been removed as a matter of course and indeed health issues but that doesn’t bother me.
I was recently loaned a superbike here by a friend but I had no idea I wasn’t licensed to ride it!
All that aside I am somewhat sorry / disappointed that some guys are considering going down the licensing route, out of necessity in some cases (Damian).
Personally I won't be going along the registration / insurance / licence route for a bicycle and I will continue to pester as many as I can to have e-bikes treated as bicycles as in the rest of the UK and Europe.
I am a stubborn old scroat and out of principle I refuse to accept this lack of parity and remain in the hope that pedelecs here will eventually be accepted as bicycles as on the Mainland.
I will obviously continue to wander about this excellent forum full of like minded people and will post views, opinions and information as and when I get it.
I will also always be interested in how anyone who agrees to the "process" gets on.
Good luck to you from both of us but out of principle we can't join you.
The Brompton ride this morning was good but we both miss the pedelecs and continue to simmer at how this Mickey Mouse N.I. government allowed this to happen.
I rode all manner of bikes including 180mph superbikes for 30 years.
I passed my car test in 1967 and have been driving ever since.
I passed my Class One HGV test in 1971 and drove all manner of artics etc until 1993 when I was forcibly retired due to an industrial accident - not my fault.
All my licences are spotlessly clean.
After this accident I owned and rode a Powabyke in England for several years without incident.
I had no idea what power it put out nor was I ever asked. It had a hand throttle and one pump of the pedals activated this feature and I could use the motor all day if I wanted without pedalling.
The power cut out around 15mph and I accepted that. It was heavy but well engineered.
When we moved back to N. Ireland in 2011 after 33 years living in England I applied for a new "card" licence and one was issued.
The categories are B, B1, BE, C1, C1E, D1, D1E.
When I questioned the apparent lack of a motorbike category I was told that they had no record of me passing a test!
This is utter rubbish as I remember how proud and relieved I was on getting THAT vital slip of paper.
I suspect my HGV category has been removed as a matter of course and indeed health issues but that doesn’t bother me.
I was recently loaned a superbike here by a friend but I had no idea I wasn’t licensed to ride it!
All that aside I am somewhat sorry / disappointed that some guys are considering going down the licensing route, out of necessity in some cases (Damian).
Personally I won't be going along the registration / insurance / licence route for a bicycle and I will continue to pester as many as I can to have e-bikes treated as bicycles as in the rest of the UK and Europe.
I am a stubborn old scroat and out of principle I refuse to accept this lack of parity and remain in the hope that pedelecs here will eventually be accepted as bicycles as on the Mainland.
I will obviously continue to wander about this excellent forum full of like minded people and will post views, opinions and information as and when I get it.
I will also always be interested in how anyone who agrees to the "process" gets on.
Good luck to you from both of us but out of principle we can't join you.
The Brompton ride this morning was good but we both miss the pedelecs and continue to simmer at how this Mickey Mouse N.I. government allowed this to happen.
You know what Ted.......you're absolutely right!
Based on your very well written statement above my mind is now soundly made up.
I will continue to treat my bike for exactly what is it is! A bicycle!
Based on your very well written statement above my mind is now soundly made up.
I will continue to treat my bike for exactly what is it is! A bicycle!
Your Powabyke was one of a tiny number of pedelecs that were legal at that time. Almost all in use here from 1999 on were illegal 250 watts machines, since the 200 watt limit EAPC regulations deemed them to be mopeds. The 250 watt machines finally had a waiver for use from 13th April 2013 until the EAPC was amended on 6th April 2015, though no-one had given up using them meanwhile. With up to 150,000 in use in the UK that horse had bolted, too late to close the stable door.
Powabykes, first introduced in 1999, always had a brushed 200 watt motor until the current decade.
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Just two points of clarification.. you don'ts need to go to the mainland , on the vast majority of this island , and indeed almost half the area of the historical province of Ulster it is perfectly legal to ride ebikes. I can see however that there might be a value in arguing the case on equality grounds with English shires.
The second point is that you currently have no government in NI , no representational democracy, what you currently have is a hamstrung adminstration.
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