Update on N.I. e-bike regs.

[TedG]

So have you all read this story...

http://limavady.thechronicle.uk.com/articles/news/64293/cyclist-falls-foul-of-e-bike-law/

The one detail I still don't know is what kind of bike he was riding....was it a UK legal 250 watt bike or was he on a 5000W electric motorbike!

I also didn't know he was over the limit until I read the article!

Just got back and found this article.
Only thing I am thinking is that Plod are now getting active because of the initial confiscation a while back so they need to be seen to be upholding the "law" in all cases.
Personally I don't think he has done us any favours by being over the limit as well and if that had included a personal injury accident all bets would be off.

 

[TedG]

Hope this works. Have a read and I'll do a minutes of the meeting when my headache has gone.

 

[TedG]

Part 2.
There is bound to be a more civilised way to upload files from docs but I am more at home with a 16 speed Eaton Roadranger than I am with this PC.

 

[tommie]

Not working for me Ted

 

[TedG]

 

[TedG]

Another way. Sorry guys.

 

[flecc]

Thanks Ted, I managed to read your original posts.

The lack of imagination and refusal to explore anything other than the established legal position is frustrating to say the least

The discussion about Sustrans and the poor implementation of the N.I. law on e-bikes just avoids the point that the problem is getting rid of that draconian law, not facilitating its use.

As I've shown there is an established way that pedelecs could be permitted on a temporary basis until the law is finally amended, but it's clear that we are dealing with closed minds.
.

 

[Danidl]

Another way. Sorry guys.
View attachment 24513

Again my sympathy.. it's a bizzare situation. The secretary John McGrath has missed, probably intentionally, ( I suspect that he is a smart guy so it is probably not a failure in comprehension ) the import of the discussion. It is not about failures to communicate, it is about a failure to legistate. It has nothing to do about gathering statistics about the number of ebikes in the province, it is about providing the same civil rights to persons in NI as are enjoyed in Cornwall. Perhaps that might be an alternative path to explore...the lack of equality in NI in this matter vis a vi other nations within the UK. You have a very active equality commission there I understand, and they might like to get their teeth into something which was not sectarian.

 

[TedG]

Well that was an interesting day and we were treated like Royalty!

The meeting was with Steven Agnew MLA and leader of the Green Party in Northern Ireland.

He was a pleasant and agreeable person who at least gave us the chance of a face to face with someone who is sympathetic to our cause here. He is an avid cyclist and fully understood the plight we are embroiled in regarding the use of pedelecs here.

I supplied him with a wheelbarrow full of documents and details, a great amount of it from you guys on the forum and it was an impressive sight. Many thanks for your input.

I also gave him a list of questions which I had compiled and he assures me they will be answered.

I have to say at this point that we were both quite pleased when he informed us that he had been "inundated" with correspondence and meetings with e-bike users here in N.I. as I was convinced that I was a voice in the wilderness, thankfully far from it.

The copy letter which I have hopefully attached in two parts (forgive the clumsiness) was apparently a response to a rider way back in October 2017 when this nightmare began.

Even for an old pessimist like me I can see a few positives in it.

Steven admitted, as I was expecting, that there was little which could be done re a waiver or a "special circumstances" plan as it seems this sort of legislation really does have to wade through red tape.
I sensed that the idea of an illegality in the enforcement of these laws here wasn’t as obvious as I had thought. I felt he thought that it would be one for the top lawyers and therefore way above my comfort zone.

He informed us that the necessary agreements are alive and well and waiting to be signed off as and when "a minister is appointed".
It is (as I was also told by the CEO of the bike manufacturer) a "matter of waiting" but if he was pushed, as indeed we did, he suggested that he had a time of a year or so in his head before an executive could be assembled after which there would be no problem signing this and many other outstanding issues off and back to some sort of normality.

Memo to N.I. forum members - Is normality the word I am looking for?

This is a long time for old scroats like us to wait but wait we must as he was in agreement that confiscation and penalty for illegal use is obligatory for the PSNI even though they could probably do without it all. He was honest enough to admit that he would prefer to pack his e-bike away rather than for Plod to pack it away.

I believe that the infamous "need a reason to stop" policy may have been set aside now that a precedent has been set.
Memo to Damian - be warned.

At the time of the meeting today I was unaware that another "incident" had occurred in the Limavady area.

As politicians go he was actually one of the more genuine ones and trust me, I wasn’t born yesterday.
I shall wait on his response to my questions and indeed to two others in the higher echelons who have recently replied to my last mails.

Just my opinion of course but although those who I have had dealings with are not officially working they are equally so not totally idle from what I saw and heard today.
We both sensed a tone of embarrassment at their own situation because as they are not the top protagonists in the Stormont fiasco they are at the mercy of those who are the major bickering team.

My head is hurting now but if I remember anything else I will post it and also any answers which I receive to my questions.

 

[Danidl]

Well that was an interesting day and we were treated like Royalty!

The meeting was with Steven Agnew MLA and leader of the Green Party in Northern Ireland.

He was a pleasant and agreeable person who at least gave us the chance of a face to face with someone who is sympathetic to our cause here. He is an avid cyclist and fully understood the plight we are embroiled in regarding the use of pedelecs here.

I supplied him with a wheelbarrow full of documents and details, a great amount of it from you guys on the forum and it was an impressive sight. Many thanks for your input.

I also gave him a list of questions which I had compiled and he assures me they will be answered.

I have to say at this point that we were both quite pleased when he informed us that he had been "inundated" with correspondence and meetings with e-bike users here in N.I. as I was convinced that I was a voice in the wilderness, thankfully far from it.

The copy letter which I have hopefully attached in two parts (forgive the clumsiness) was apparently a response to a rider way back in October 2017 when this nightmare began.

Even for an old pessimist like me I can see a few positives in it.

Steven admitted, as I was expecting, that there was little which could be done re a waiver or a "special circumstances" plan as it seems this sort of legislation really does have to wade through red tape.
I sensed that the idea of an illegality in the enforcement of these laws here wasn’t as obvious as I had thought. I felt he thought that it would be one for the top lawyers and therefore way above my comfort zone.

He informed us that the necessary agreements are alive and well and waiting to be signed off as and when "a minister is appointed".
It is (as I was also told by the CEO of the bike manufacturer) a "matter of waiting" but if he was pushed, as indeed we did, he suggested that he had a time of a year or so in his head before an executive could be assembled after which there would be no problem signing this and many other outstanding issues off and back to some sort of normality.

Memo to N.I. forum members - Is normality the word I am looking for?

This is a long time for old scroats like us to wait but wait we must as he was in agreement that confiscation and penalty for illegal use is obligatory for the PSNI even though they could probably do without it all. He was honest enough to admit that he would prefer to pack his e-bike away rather than for Plod to pack it away.

I believe that the infamous "need a reason to stop" policy may have been set aside now that a precedent has been set.
Memo to Damian - be warned.

At the time of the meeting today I was unaware that another "incident" had occurred in the Limavady area.

As politicians go he was actually one of the more genuine ones and trust me, I wasn’t born yesterday.
I shall wait on his response to my questions and indeed to two others in the higher echelons who have recently replied to my last mails.

Just my opinion of course but although those who I have had dealings with are not officially working they are equally so not totally idle from what I saw and heard today.
We both sensed a tone of embarrassment at their own situation because as they are not the top protagonists in the Stormont fiasco they are at the mercy of those who are the major bickering team.

My head is hurting now but if I remember anything else I will post it and also any answers which I receive to my questions.

My experience of Green Party politicians is that of decent idealists , certainly here in the south and I would have little doubt that it is the same in NI.

 

[anotherkiwi]

My take is that NI can be neither member of the EU nor of the UK, its laws in this case are estranged from both of those unions...

 

[MRMAC9]

I saw two Freego ebikes on the go in Belfast today without plates. The Limavady case is appalling. When it goes to court it will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[Damian.Doherty]

I'm sure there are more than three but I've only seen two other e-bikes in Derry,

Both ridden by people who were at least 50+, one lady and and one man. Not together I should say.

The lady I saw at the weekend and she was riding behind (who I assume was her husband) he was riding a regular mountain bike. Her mountain bike was super incognito, only because her rear hub motor is looked identical to mine was I able to spot it.

And the other was an old man who looked like he was in his 70's, he was riding what looked like a Coyote.

And these are the people most effected by this, a teenager riding a fast electric bike is not dependent on the motor to get around!

 

[flecc]

Appropos my suggestion for a waiver, I've just posted an example of how a Civil Service can provide a temporary solution to solve a problem, if the right Civil Servant is dealing with the matter:

Link to post
.

 

[tommie]

In our situation flecc i don`t think a `waiver` could over-rule our current Road Traffic Act with relation to Mopeds?
Would the target not be over in Swansea, specifically the department that made this `ebike is a moped` registration decision in the first place?

 

[craiggor]

Have DVLA Swansea used a waiver to allow EAPC's to be registered without certificate of conformity or MSVA ? No mention of these on Gov.NI just £55 reg fee,proof of identity and insurance. It does say it would need type approval if fitted with a throttle. No MOT required Have they made a new class EAPC ?

Sent from my T1005 using Tapatalk

 

[flecc]

In our situation flecc i don`t think a `waiver` could over-rule our current Road Traffic Act with relation to Mopeds?

Well our informal waiver overruled both the 1983 EAPC regulations and the Road Traffic Acts in our case. In both our case and your current situation, the problem was caused by a previous failure of government to properly introduce required EU legislation, so I see them as almost identical.

Would the target not be over in Swansea, specifically the department that made this `ebike is a moped` registration decision in the first place?

As I posted previously, I think Swansea could issue a waiver since they appear to be the registration authority for N.I. But as servants the Civil Service cannot initiate the action, it must start with a request from an interested party (N.I. resident or national, or a lawyer acting for them). Then a meeting of all involved would have to agree on a waiver and the form it would take. Those at the meeting would be the DVLA, someone from the DVLA near equivalent in N.I., the Chief Constable of the PSNI or his representative, someone representing the cycle trade in N.I. selling e-bikes and anyone else considered to be an interested party with some relevant authority.

The DVLA didn't in truth really make that law for you, it was the default position for the whole UK prior to the 1983 EAPC regulations, so that became also your default. In the trade long ago it was how we had to sell every assisted bike, registered, number plated, driving licence needed etc.

I well remember my father commuting in England on his registered assisted bike with L plates, and then having to take the full motorcycle test to get rid of them. No simpler Moped test back then, but fortunately no m/c helmet law either.
.

 

[MRMAC9]

I'm sure there are more than three but I've only seen two other e-bikes in Derry,

Both ridden by people who were at least 50+, one lady and and one man. Not together I should say.

The lady I saw at the weekend and she was riding behind (who I assume was her husband) he was riding a regular mountain bike. Her mountain bike was super incognito, only because her rear hub motor is looked identical to mine was I able to spot it.

And the other was an old man who looked like he was in his 70's, he was riding what looked like a Coyote.

And these are the people most effected by this, a teenager riding a fast electric bike is not dependent on the motor to get around!

The guy on the red Freego Eagle was out again this morning. He was at least 65 years old and travelling at about 12 mph. Not exactly a threat to public safety.

 

[flecc]

Have they made a new class EAPC ?

There was an intention to create a new type approval class for January 2018. That clearly failed of course. I don't think the DVLA realised that the EU couldn't just accept such a class just for the UK. In fact the two and three wheeled type approval law made any such change specifically for one member country after 10th November 2003 impossible.
.

 

[TedG]

The guy on the red Freego Eagle was out again this morning. He was at least 65 years old and travelling at about 12 mph. Not exactly a threat to public safety.

Sadly he is breaking the law and that was confirmed at our meeting yesterday.
I believe that the "reason to stop" which would have previously been used if the PSNI deemed the cyclist was in some way a danger on the roads has now been set aside and active ebikes will simply be confiscated as a matter of course if a stop reveals the bike wasn't registered, insured etc.
From what I understood any "grace period" if indeed there ever was any is now over and unregistered and uninsured ebikes are fair game as illegal vehicles on these roads.