UK to Harmonise Electric Bike Law with Europe?

[shemozzle999]

I wonder of there is a possible bypass to the throttle question?
As we have been assured the cheaper type pedal sensor only requires movement not torque to activate the motor.
So basically spinning the pedals is required.
If there was then a power control ( like) a throttle.
Could we then have a legal system that operates only when pedalling and gives you throttle control over speed?

Any current pedal sensor system that allows overun will need to be reprogrammed for 2016 model as it will not meet the legal requirement.

It has been mentioned in the past that what you are suggesting would be allowed but the throttle would only be allowed to operate up to 6kph but I do not know if this is in fact allowable perhaps someone could confirm this.

 

[flecc]

Throttles that only operate up to 4 mph (UK) or 6 kph (EU) are allowed since that falls within other no-bureaucracy legislation as well. The problem with current implementations of them is that they have little power due to them being a cheap implementation, not due to any law restricting them.

Otherwise there is a possible ambiguity. This is what is allowed in the legal pedelec class by exemption:

h) pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h;

The possible ambiguity is in the meaning of "otherwise" in the second bold part that is in question.

If it is "as well as" such a throttle would not be legal. I think that is what is meant.

But if it means "instead", that means such a full throttle would be legal under the first half of the bold highlighted statement.

Opinions?

Of course such interpretations of law are the province of senior judges.
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[D8ve]

So our hypothesised system cuts off when the cyclist stops pedalling and has reduction upto 25 circuitry built in. If this system had a secondary limiter as a true throttle reducing power it would be compliant and behave in a similar fashion to D8veh,s beloved throttle?

 

[Cyclezee]

As far as eZee bikes are concerned the EU throttle issue is already covered, all eZee bikes manufactured since 2012 have several specific modes including one for the EU whereby simply altering a setting on the handlebar console restricts the throttle to 6 Km/h walk assist.

We already advise customers about this issue if they wish to take their bike to the EU mainland.

 

[mfj197]

I've long ago posted when discussing this expected change that owners of independent throttle e-bikes should establish proof of the existence of their e-bike before parliament approves the change and there is still time to do that. The minimum I'd suggest is a clear photo of their e-bike with a current newspaper within the photo, showing at least the headlines if not the date.

Not sure that method of proof of existance works. You could just use an old newspaper from before the change of law in your photograph - doesn't prove the bike existed at that point in time.

I wonder of there is a possible bypass to the throttle question?
As we have been assured the cheaper type pedal sensor only requires movement not torque to activate the motor.
So basically spinning the pedals is required.
If there was then a power control ( like) a throttle.
Could we then have a legal system that operates only when pedalling and gives you throttle control over speed?

I would have thought that would be fine - you are in that instance just using a proportional means of adjusting the motor assist level rather than stepping through increasing settings on the display. You needn't even call it a throttle come to think of it.

Michael

 

[tillson]

h) pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h;

The possible ambiguity is in the meaning of "otherwise" in the second bold part that is in question.

If it is "as well as" such a throttle would not be legal. I think that is what is meant.

But if it means "instead", that means such a full throttle would be legal under the first half of the bold highlighted statement.

Opinions?
.

I think the statement means power must be cut when pedalling stops AND also progressively reduce as speed approaches 25 Kmh.

I think that the loss of a throttle option is a shame because I can see how this could benefit some individuals. The evidence suggests that the throttle isn't a great issue within mainland Europe, but I wonder why.

If the moped class which you are investigating isn't overburdened with unwelcome requirements (helmet, number plate etc), it could turn out to be a sensible option for those requiring such a machine. The 1000 Watt upper power limit would be very useful too.

I think D8ve has a point. Some bikes just require the rider to turn the pedals in order to supply power even though the pedal action is contributing nothing (back pedalling works in some instances). But is this "pedalling?" Agreed, back pedalling might not be, but what about lazily turning the pedals forward?

If the above is acceptable and all other requirements are met (motor output progressively reduced (Maybe from 14.75 mph up to cut off!), could a device be introduced to vary the motor power delivered? It would be a throttle in all but name.

Edit:
Crossed with mfj197 on the last point.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

A normal PAS gives power when you turn the pedals without effort. You can adjust the power level with the up and down buttons, so what would be the point of a throttle like that? The Storck Raddar had exactly that system. It's like continuously adjustable PAS (no steps).

 

[shemozzle999]

Also, as member Mechaniker (Frank) pointed out, even the USA don't demand throttles on pedelec stuff he supplies, and they've always had permission for them!

As he rightly said and I agree, it really is a peculiarly British obsession.
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I wonder if Frank could tell us what percentage of USA sales he provides to add some substance to his sweeping statement

 

[shemozzle999]

Yes, that's going to be interesting, but I'm sure any drop will be temporary while people get used to the new. However, these new measures might well result in L1e-A e-bikes arriving on the market, so a fairer comparison then perhaps a further year later will be the combined sales of the two.

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It will probably take longer than a year to recover as I am sure there will be a long term lack of repeat sales as the dealers can only offer a lesser functioning replacement.

 

[JohnCade]

To be honest I don't really understand why some able bodied people are so keen on throttles. I Had one on my first bike but apart from hill starts and quick getaways across traffic I didn't use it at all; and as long as the PAS is set up for instant power at a push of a pedal and is not set to lag then you don't even need a throttle for those either.

In traffic I used a lower assist level to avoid shooting into the back of a car in front and never felt the need of a throttle there, and the walk assist can be made more powerful legally it seems. So that could be used as a throttle to manoeuvre around heavy traffic if required.

 

[shemozzle999]

The difference is that all the electric bicycle control systems do not possess instant hand to eye functionality. The system is devoid of any awareness of the environmental conditions in which it is being used. Where as my throttle is.

 

[JohnCade]

The difference is that all the electric bicycle control systems do not possess instant hand to eye functionality. The system is devoid of any awareness of the environmental conditions in which it is being used.

But pedal cycles don't either. And pedelecs are supposed to be electrically assisted bicycles.

 

[shemozzle999]

But pedal cycles don't either. And they are supposed to be electrally assisted bicycles.

The person riding it is the control system.

 

[flecc]

So our hypothesised system cuts off when the cyclist stops pedalling and has reduction upto 25 circuitry built in. If this system had a secondary limiter as a true throttle reducing power it would be compliant and behave in a similar fashion to D8veh,s beloved throttle?

I presume so since it would be like the power level switching on existing legal pedelecs such as the Bosch and similar units.
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[flecc]

I think the statement means power must be cut when pedalling stops AND also progressively reduce as speed approaches 25 Kmh.

I agree, but demonstrably many existing legal pedelecs scarcely comply with the power reduction. The old Panasonic units clearly did, but the latest ones seem to drive at the same power to almost cutoff.
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[flecc]

It will probably take longer than a year to recover as I am sure there will be a long term lack of repeat sales as the dealers can only offer a lesser functioning replacement.

In fact the first year will possibly produce higher sales, since there is by convention a period for dealers to sell existing stock. Past practice means that will be at least six months, also establishing grandfather rights for existing throttle e-bikes.

A possible rush for those could be the sales increase element.
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[D8ve]

The difference is that all the electric bicycle control systems do not possess instant hand to eye functionality. The system is devoid of any awareness of the environmental conditions in which it is being used. Where as my throttle is.

Removing the hand function the Panasonic drive has the instant (circa20ms) response times to adapt to my awareness of the environment. Via the pedal pressure .

 

[Deleted member 4366]

That's OK until your crank comes loose or you fall off your bike and hurt your knee or you can't pedal for any other reason , or if your chain snaps, then a throttle becomes necessary, otherwise throttles are not essential, but useful. I don't understand why people can't accept that.

 

[james@justebikes.co.uk]

Buying now is ok John, since parliament has still to see and approve the new law. That even makes change posible, but that is extremely unlikely since the consultation was concluded long ago.

E-bikes currently bought will be entitled to "grandfather rights" after the change as detailed by the DfT, and that includes having a throttle, since the current UK EAPC law does not prescribe a method of control.

Following the change, suppliers of bureacracy free pedelecs will be unable to offer throttles.

They will also be able to supply powered bicycles in the L1e-A class for legal road use if type approved for that purpose. As said above, I'm trying to find out what the requirements are for approval and use and I've emailed the DfT for more information on this.
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Flecc perhaps Steve can help you. Below is email of 25.04.14 from him regarding registration of a Sparta E-Speed:

Dear James,

Good news I can confirm that the CoC that you supplied is genuine, I have checked it against the original approval.

The TA Number is: e4*2002/24*[xxxxx]

By all means use this email if there is a subsequent problem with DVLA, when you come to register the electric bike concerned, I am known to them (DVLA: my CoC check refers to the above TA No and the VIN: XPTELB[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]).

You can find the registration process on DVLA’s website at:

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration

Essentially you complete a V55/4 application form and supply the CoC document with that application form. If you have any questions regards that process please contact the DVLA at: [....]

I hope this helps you.


Regards

Steve

| Legislation Manager | Vehicle Certification Agency |

 

[flecc]

Flecc perhaps Steve can help you. Below is email of 25.04.14 from him regarding registration of a Sparta E-Speed:

Thanks James, I'll try that route. My main concern now is the new rules for L1e-A which I now think from what I've found out so far may not apply until 1st January 2016. That of course is the old Low Powered Moped class, also known now as the Powered Pedal Cycle class.

Unlike the e-speed, these are still restricted to 25 kph (15.5 mph) and I want to know if registration is required in the UK. The reason I think it might not be is that the type approval requirements for these does not require checking for a space for a number plate on the bike. That then begs the question, is third party insurance required, since that cannot be monitored without registration and number plates.

So far there only seems to be an assortment of incomplete details about L1e-A, despite them already being permitted and the Q category driving licence available.
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