UK to Harmonise Electric Bike Law with Europe?

[anotherkiwi]

All for an e-bike restricted to 15.5 mph!

In French law motor assistance is limited to 25 kph NOT the speed of the e-bike. You can still thunder down hills at speeds up to 90 kph on the open road

Apparently the Netherlands limit the speed of a pedelec to 25 kph pedaling or not. They don't have very many steep hills to thunder down but they do have very congested cycle paths.


In France a moped (very few of those left) is limited to 45 kph top speed, assistance or not. Plus motorcycle helmet, insurance and as of recently a number plate

Tony

 

[flecc]

In French law motor assistance is limited to 25 kph NOT the speed of the e-bike. You can still thunder down hills at speeds up to 90 kph on the open road

In France a moped (very few of those left) is limited to 45 kph top speed, assistance or not. Plus motorcycle helmet, insurance and as of recently a number plate

Tony

These are the same in the UK Tony and its also the EU law, only the assist speed is legislated, not the pedal only or downhill speed.
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[jonathan75]

So throttle only not allowed then?

I think one solution could be to get some people representing the trade to ask for an audience with the relevant secretary of state, to explain that expansion of business will suffer from the legal uncertainty /this legal rule;and to request a change of policy and a statement from the government confirming that change (if they agree). Could try to get Age UK and an umbrella disability charity (or largest which deal with rheumatic and cardiac conditions) onside for the effort.

 

[JamesW]

So throttle only not allowed then?

I think one solution could be to get some people representing the trade to ask for an audience with the relevant secretary of state, to explain that expansion of business will suffer from the legal uncertainty /this legal rule;and to request a change of policy and a statement from the government confirming that change (if they agree). Could try to get Age UK and an umbrella disability charity (or largest which deal with rheumatic and cardiac conditions) onside for the effort.

Even add to that list one or more of the charities representing the disabled servicemen coming back from various conflict zones at the moment and point out how much of a requirement the throttle those for those with artificial legs/ leg parts as there seems to be a lot of movement in that area at the moment to support them and no one wants to pass legislation that will disadvantage them!

 

[flecc]

So throttle only not allowed then?

I think one solution could be to get some people representing the trade to ask for an audience with the relevant secretary of state, to explain that expansion of business will suffer from the legal uncertainty /this legal rule;and to request a change of policy and a statement from the government confirming that change (if they agree). Could try to get Age UK and an umbrella disability charity (or largest which deal with rheumatic and cardiac conditions) onside for the effort.

Effectively this has been done already Jonathan. The DfT had a consultation in whicn many of us took part, including trade members. Most of us I'm sure appealed for throttles to be allowed since this was known to be a widespread view, and our appeals were based on all the applicable issues, particularly with regard to disabilities. Subsequently the DfT acknowledged that they would consider the throttle question, but obviously all our appeals fell on deaf ears.

I must say I'm not surprised and said this was likely to be the outcome back in 2013. A major problem is the complexity of the alterations that would have to be to EU law, not just pedelec but the motor vehicle type approval legislation. Another reason is that there is a class for that purpose, the L1e-A class that allows pedal cycles with throttles and up to 1000 watts, the latter ideal for people with disability. Here it's known as the Low Powered Moped class. Another problem is that, as member Mechaniker pointed out from his very wide experience, it's only Britain that has this obsession with throttles.

I'm currently trying to get clarification from the DfT on the construction and use requirements for that class since I believe they may now be not be anywhere near as onerous as for the main moped class. While they have to be type approved, that would be done by the manufacturer, importer or supplier for each model and would not affect owners. Kit built e-bikes for that class would have to be taken through single vehicle approval though.

As soon as I get more information on this I'll post it here, but meanwhile I've established that most of the bicycle requirements are met by normal bicycle equipment. The remaining questions concern requirements for registration and third party insurance, if any, and if there are specific helmet wearing requirements.

Meanwhile, here is a link to an announcement regarding the consultation and here is a link to the details with documents to download, covering the consultation, responses and impact.
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[neptune]

A law that most people regard as unjust is likely to broken, and ultimately means that laws in general are no longer respected. If i bought a new e bike, I would definitely convert it to throttle. I would use the throttle occasionally, but I would have the reassurance that it was there if needed.

 

[flecc]

Even add to that list one or more of the charities representing the disabled servicemen coming back from various conflict zones at the moment and point out how much of a requirement the throttle those for those with artificial legs/ leg parts as there seems to be a lot of movement in that area at the moment to support them and no one wants to pass legislation that will disadvantage them!

See my reply to Jonathan75 above James. Also I'm investigating another possibility for disabled people in addition to what I posted there.
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[flecc]

A law that most people regard as unjust is likely to broken, and ultimately means that laws in general are no longer respected. If i bought a new e bike, I would definitely convert it to throttle. I would use the throttle occasionally, but I would have the reassurance that it was there if needed.

See my reply to Jonathan75 above Neptune. I frankly don't see how this law is unjust when so many countries are happy with what it requires, not just in the EU but many other countries. As said, there are other classes that meet your needs if you must have a throttle.
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[Deleted member 4366]

I bet half the bikes sold after the deadline will still have throttles. Nobody will care!

 

[JamesW]

See my reply to Jonathan75 above James. Also I'm investigating another possibility for disabled people in addition to what I posted there.
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And this is entirely ignoring the disabled like me who are not able to get and keep a driving licence. There could be a caveat pushed through to make it easier for disabled people to be self sufficient and keep employed by changing the regulations for all, just like they have recently done with the building regs and socket/switch heights to make all new work more generally disabled friendly.
They can argue for the use of throttles in the UK as an action to keep the costs down for the disabled I.e. prevent discrimination! The UK could lead in Europe on this instead of following like sheep.

 

[flecc]

I symathise with your sentiments James, but that change is not as easy as you suggest.

I also feel you've ignored what I said about there being a powered pedal cycle class suitable for them, not only having legal throttles but also the extra power to 1000 watts that many partially disabled people might need to cope with hills.

In addition there is a specific class of powered vehicles designed for registered disabled people which are not required to go through type approval. There is and never has been in recent times anything to prevent a supplier designing one on bicycle lines, and I presume it's only a lack of sufficient demand that has prevented one from appearing.

So as you see, there are adequate provisions for those disabled to a wide variety of degrees without having to change our electric assist bicycles regulations. Don't forget that an owner doesn't have to take one of these suitable classes through type approval, it's the suppliers responsibility to get it for all the models supplied and they have to supply a copy of the approval certificate to all purchasers.
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[JamesW]

I symathise with your sentiments James, but that change is not as easy as you suggest.

I also feel you've ignored what I said about there being a powered pedal cycle class suitable for them, not only having legal throttles but also the extra power to 1000 watts that many partially disabled people might need to cope with hills.

In addtion there is a specific class of powered vehicles designed for registered disabled people which are not required to go through type approval. There is and never has been in recent times anything to prevent a supplier designing one on bicycle lines, and I presume it's only a lack of sufficient demand that has prevented one from appearing.

So as you see, there are adequate provisions for those disabled to a wide variety of degrees without having to change our electric assist bicycles regulations.
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And the ones who can't "register" as disabled but ate still covered by the DDA who lose can potentially have driving licenses etc removed in the blink of an eye on medical grounds? This leaves US nowhere and we're actually probably the majority of the disabled population. (The ones who can take the label and try very hard not to as they have an invisible disablilty!)

 

[flecc]

Well, it seems from what you say that not registering is a personal choice James. If that makes it difficult to take advantage of the classes I mentioned, surely that's also by choice and hardly the fault of the authorities.

What puzzzles me also is why there is no fuss about this throttle issue in any other countries. Some of them have had more disabled than us following WW2 and are very solicitous regarding disabled facilities.
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[JamesW]

So you ate saying that if I ever get my driving license back, although I will then be ineligible for a disabled railcard and buspass I would still be allowed to drive one of those type of bikes (without a driving license)? That's not how I've experienced it so far.

 

[shemozzle999]

What puzzzles me also is why there is no fuss about this throttle issue in any other countries. Some of them have had more disabled than us following WW2 and are very solicitous regarding disabled facilities.
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Unlike us they have not had a taste of the forbidden fruit, we have and have found it to be good - given the opportunity I am sure they would too.

 

[flecc]

So you ate saying that if I ever get my driving license back, although I will then be ineligible for a disabled railcard and buspass I would still be allowed to drive one of those type of bikes (without a driving license)? That's not how I've experienced it so far.

I don't quite understand what you are saying James. If you get your driving licence back, how could you be riding without a licence?

If your licence qualified you as it might, you'd be legal, if it didn't qualify you for that type of e-bike you could still just take the test for that class for it to be added to your licence.

If your driving licence was originally a full one for a car and you qualified for that before February 2001, it pre-qualifies you for that throttle type of e-bike with up to 1000 watts power. If you are restricted from driving a car, you could apply for your licence to be switched to that powered pedal cycle one only. It's group q.
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[flecc]

Unlike us they have not had a taste the forbidden fruit, we have and have found it to be good - given the opportunity I am sure they would too.

Perhaps true for many newer entrants, though they had permission for throttles before November 2003 and had some e-bikes with then then. And I never saw or heard of any requests for throttles from them back then. Also they have the disabled so why are they not raising the issue, they surely know motorcycles have throttles.

Also, as member Mechaniker (Frank) pointed out, even the USA don't demand throttles on pedelec stuff he supplies, and they've always had permission for them!

As he rightly said and I agree, it really is a peculiarly British obsession.
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[shemozzle999]

Perhaps next years UK sales figures will give us an insight to how greatly a throttle is perceived in the UK market

 

[flecc]

Perhaps next years UK sale figures will give us an insight to how greatly a throttle is perceived in the UK market

Yes, that's going to be interesting, but I'm sure any drop will be temporary while people get used to the new. However, these new measures might well result in L1e-A e-bikes arriving on the market, so a fairer comparison then perhaps a further year later will be the combined sales of the two.

I think that powered pedal cycle class could be found very attractive, considering it not only allows throttles but also up to 1000 watts. Anyone having a full car driving licence since before February 2001 or anyone with a former P1 moped licence or a motor cycle licence will be pre-qualified for them, and that's most of us in here.
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[D8ve]

I wonder of there is a possible bypass to the throttle question?
As we have been assured the cheaper type pedal sensor only requires movement not torque to activate the motor.
So basically spinning the pedals is required.
If there was then a power control ( like) a throttle.
Could we then have a legal system that operates only when pedalling and gives you throttle control over speed?