TSDZ2 Clutch Failure

[Bogmonster666]

Ridding home from pub last night up a big hill and lots of horrible noise. Was using more assist than usual as it was late and I wanted to get to bed and didn’t want to stop to remove a few layers before the hill.

Failure happened near the top of the hill so it was easy enough to pedal home under my power. Suspected to find mangled blue gear but it looks fine. Then suspected the inbuilt clutch so fitted a new blue gear and all appears well. Only had a very short test ride as did this before work.

Failure was sudden without any warning. Already had spare so fixing took about half an hour. I think this is an annoying weak point in the older design but it’s easy to fix. Would have been more annoying if I was further from home. It’s done over 1000 miles.

Pleased to see that this time no accumulation of water in the motor so my liberal application of grease worked.

if you have the original TSDZ2 then it may be worth having a spare blue gear handy so you can be rolling again quickly…

I had the tools with me to do a roadside repair in theory, but the idea of doing that in the dark on a roadside - not really a viable option, and pulling the crank arm off required quite a lot of strength.

 

[Sturmey]

......... liberal application of grease worked........

I wonder would you be better going easy on the grease, especially around the small blue gear needle bearing type clutch as well as possibly the larger sprag clutch bearing. Just a thought. I have 4000Km on mine, Turbo all the time with throttle. The motor has never been opened or greased.

 

[Bogmonster666]

That was red rubber grease around the housing seals to keep water getting in the case rather than lots of grease on the needle bearing, I agree that over lubricating the bearing is a poor idea.

 

[Sturmey]

That was red rubber grease around the housing seals to keep water getting in the case rather than lots of grease on the needle bearing, I agree that over lubricating the bearing is a poor idea.

You could try flushing out the faulty blue gear clutch with a light 3 in 1 type oil to see if it works again and to see if grease is the problem.

 

[Bogmonster666]

Possibly but I think life is too short. Just feels like this is an intricate component prone to failure. My suspicion is that the previous water ingress didn’t help the clutch. I had to replace the bearing on the speed reduction shaft not that long ago due to water - and the blue gear is side-by-side with the bearing I replaced.

 

[Bogmonster666]

Ok, I spoke too soon. It's intermittent but I think it's a bad connection or controller. I have a video but can't upload it here. Have not had a proper look. It sounds like a load vibration and loss of power. Can happen in walk assist. Intermittent. Will check the connections next...I'm sure if I could upload someone would know straight away.

 

[saneagle]

Ok, I spoke too soon. It's intermittent but I think it's a bad connection or controller. I have a video but can't upload it here. Have not had a proper look. It sounds like a load vibration and loss of power. Can happen in walk assist. Intermittent. Will check the connections next...I'm sure if I could upload someone would know straight away.

It's either a hall or phase wire connection issue or a dodgy MOSFET in the controller.

 

[Bogmonster666]

TDSZ2 : HOWTO - Motor Hall Sensors replacement (originally Error 3 "Torque Fault" ?)

UPDATE : I fixed it ! See below my howto (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=107538&p=1574314#p1575968) to fix the motor inner hall sensor. Hi, I need help to understand what's wrong with my motor who died during a maintenance. It's a TSDZ2 running the...

endless-sphere.com

Looks like I need to play with my multimeter today...my problem sounds like the last post in the above thread. If it's the hall sensor PCB then that looks fiddly and I'm not great at soldering. Annoyingly can't just get a new hall sensor assembly. @Woosh, guessing you carry spare 48v motors (just the actual motor) - would be good to know how much - the kit was supplied by you but annoyingly just out of warranty. Obviously, I really need to test 1st. I think it could just be a dry solder joint. Last might the motor worked for about a mile and started misbehaving as I got to my destination. On the way back, same thing, fine until I turned into my drive. My suspicion is that it's when the motor warms up slightly. Of course intermittent problems are a pita to test. I expect the actual hall sensors cost pence. If it's a dry solder joint in the back of the PCB I should be up to fixing that. Swapping the actual component sounds a bit beyond my soldering skill - although I did successfully swap out and repair a couple of components in a kiln controller PCB recently. Looked a mess but it worked.

 

[Bogmonster666]

Just to update, it’s almost certainly a hall switch. Multimeter on 2 of the 3 gives 0 to 5v. 1 of the 3 (blue wire) often does not go above 2.5v. I am testing with power from the controller so I guess it is possible the controller is pulling the voltage down on that one switch but that sounds unlikely. Will do a final test by removing the motor and rigging it up with an independent supply so the controller is fully out of the loop…but I’m 99% sure it’s the hall switch now.

I took the back plate off the motor and found the switches but they are too small for me to repair I think and the PCB is kind of encased in plastic. At a pinch I could try and repair…

@Woosh is looking to see what spares they have in stock. I’m not really keen to buy a whole new unit, ideally replace just the internal motor or possibly someone has the hall switch assembly from an otherwise dead motor.

A new motor is ~£70 from AliExpress but that means waiting a couple of weeks and seeing as I don’t drive due to illness and MRs BM will be away for a couple of days I’m a bit stuck. I’m going to see if I can borrow someone’s normally aspirated bike in the short term. I could just buy another bike as mine is a bit crap but I really don’t know what I want, and I’d still have to wait. The TSDZ2 is good on the hills and they are big hills. Not sure about the reliability so much.

 

[Bikes4two]

Just for those who may not have opened up their TSDZ2, here's some pics of the motor assembly and hall sensors.

The sensor assembly and PCB are a bespoke shape to fit into the stator casing. To access the PCB requires the removal of the black mastic that coats the assembly. Whether the PCB and hall sensors can be removed and separated from one another, I know not.

If one can be found it would be easy to change the whole circular connection plate (the one holding the 3 phase wires and hall sensors).

I'm fortunate in that someone 'gifted' me a TSDZ2 (they sold their soul to a Bosch fitted machine) so I have a complete spare, but TBH buying a complete TSDZ2 to keep as a spare is really not a bad option and cost effective given the costs faced by those with proprietary systems.

I've done near to 8,000 miles on one of my TSDZ2 and it still runs sweetly and still on the original blue gear (but I am a light motor user - ECO only).

 

[Bikes4two]

...... Will do a final test by removing the motor and rigging it up with an independent supply so the controller is fully out of the loop…but I’m 99% sure it’s the hall switch now.....

Sorry to here of the problem - if you're near me (Portsmouth) you're welcome to borrow my spare motor whilst you wait for something from China.

 

[Woosh]

Just to update, it’s almost certainly a hall switch. Multimeter on 2 of the 3 gives 0 to 5v. 1 of the 3 (blue wire) often does not go above 2.5v. I am testing with power from the controller so I guess it is possible the controller is pulling the voltage down on that one switch but that sounds unlikely. Will do a final test by removing the motor and rigging it up with an independent supply so the controller is fully out of the loop…but I’m 99% sure it’s the hall switch now.

I took the back plate off the motor and found the switches but they are too small for me to repair I think and the PCB is kind of encased in plastic. At a pinch I could try and repair…

@Woosh is looking to see what spares they have in stock. I’m not really keen to buy a whole new unit, ideally replace just the internal motor or possibly someone has the hall switch assembly from an otherwise dead motor.

A new motor is ~£70 from AliExpress but that means waiting a couple of weeks and seeing as I don’t drive due to illness and MRs BM will be away for a couple of days I’m a bit stuck. I’m going to see if I can borrow someone’s normally aspirated bike in the short term. I could just buy another bike as mine is a bit crap but I really don’t know what I want, and I’d still have to wait. The TSDZ2 is good on the hills and they are big hills. Not sure about the reliability so much.

Hall sensors: Andy or me replace them ourselves. Speak with Andy, he may have a solution.

 

[Bogmonster666]

Sorry to here of the problem - if you're near me (Portsmouth) you're welcome to borrow my spare motor whilst you wait for something from China.

View attachment 58160

That's a kind offer. I'll see what Andy comes up with, gave him a call yesterday so he is having a rummage about. I'm not near Portsmouth.

I could try and remove the whole kit and reinstate a normal BB and crankset in the short term. Major faff though. If no joy from Andy I'll try and borrow a bike for a couple of weeks and order from Ali Express. It is unfortunate my wife is away for a couple of days, main thing is getting to medical appointments.

I have a non-electric folder, there is no way I can cycle that up the hill home (16%), gears are nowhere near low enough…but could get a taxi back.

 

[Bogmonster666]

I’m slightly confused about replacement motors though…sure, I understand why there are two different windings for 36v and 48v. Not really sure why different options exist for 250, 350, 500w ?

Sure, I could understand the controller being different with different firmware config, but I would think all 48v motors are the same / interchangeable. There is a 250w 48v one on AliExpress so that’s probably what I’ll order…

 

[Bogmonster666]

New motor on the way, Andy @Woosh came good and found a spare.

I think I am going to have to get another bike going. If I’m going to need a spare motor, might as well have a whole spare bike. Still working on my folder idea.

The wires are not broken but the board looks a mess and there is no way I can solder it. I expect to is possible to ditch the board entirely and solder directly onto the sensors and glue them into place….life is too short though…

 

[Bogmonster666]

Received replacement bare motor and fitted. I think it's all working but need to go for an actual ride. Run for 5 or 10 mins on walk assist and it's fine. Btw, should have enabled walk assist from the get go as a much easier way to adjust indexing on rear derailleur...

Edit: done a brisk loop around the block with some steep hills and definitely appears to be fixed - will know for sure tomorrow as I have a reasonable length ride with big hill on the way home.

 

[Bogmonster666]

My conclusion is that water ingress definitely didn't help. I've also read a few posts where hall switches have died after a climb. Moisture and heat isn't a good combination.

After some water ingress protection, after last time I had it apart, it did look dry inside this time, but the motor was corroded.

Overall though, I'm going to keep this for longer leisure rides and fair weather. I'm going to get a hub powered bike for more utilitarian use. Either a pre-built Wisper maybe, or at a pinch a hub based kit. I do already have a 48v battery to pair with a suitable motor. Hopefully a hub will be less leaky...Wisper tells me their bikes are rain friendly.

 

[Nealh]

Tsdz2 has too much air space/gaps so no escape for heat to the outer metal casing as a heat sink. Ideally if heat was an issue then the heat mods need to be done to fill in the empty gaps and fill the spaces, air being a poor convector of heat so thermal heat pads and sthin copper plates can be added internally.

 

[Bogmonster666]

Tsdz2 has too much air space/gaps so no escape for heat to the outer metal casing as a heat sink. Ideally if heat was an issue then the heat mods need to be done to fill in the empty gaps and fill the spaces, air being a poor convector of heat so thermal heat pads and sthin copper plates can be added internally.

I don't think it overheated as such, but the motor obviously gets warm and then cools and the hall sensors and PCB heats and cools because it's internal to the motor. Heating and cooling = expansion and contraction. Add any moisture and that really is asking for poor reliability. Really the problem is it's a horribly leaky design Sure, better thermal conductivity may help a bit but I think the primary problem is water...I'm not pushing the motor hard, stock firmware and mostly on eco and tour. I get 60 miles out of a 10ah battery

 

[Bikes4two]

I don't think it overheated as such, but the motor obviously gets warm ........ and mostly on eco and tour.

Some riders, especially those using the higher power versions (250w+) and using high assist levels have reported overheating issues, but after 18 months use on a 36v 250w system and ridden like you almost exclusively in ECO, overheating is definitely not an issue.

To check the internal tempartures I fitted some Radio Spares Non-reversible Temperature Sensitive Labels - they come in various temperature ranges - I used the 71c to 110c range and despite cycling in mid summer temperatures approching 30degC (holiday in France) and leaving the bike parked up in full sunshine, the case has of course got warm but there has never been a registration on the label, i.e. the temperature hasn't reached 71c.

If you are using a 48v system then heat generation for the same power are even less than in a 36v system (P = I x V and all that Ohms law stuff).