Tongxin Kit 'where And How'

[frank9755]

Flecc,

How right you were! Please feel free to say that you told us so!

I did loads of research before getting mine and came across some problems, but thought it would be ok for what I wanted. I couldn't find anything on those issues in the US (and didn't have the inside info from David Henshaw!), but I now think you are completely right in your assessment!

All I can say is that I hope that Jeremy's recumbent keeps working as it looks so good. It must have some chance as the way he is using it seems to be less demanding, and maybe he's got one of the odd few controllers and motors which work!

Frank

 

[HarryB]

Frank, I am confused are you saying your motor went wrong? I thought it was the controller that you had problems with.

 

[flecc]

I know Frank's been having controller problems. In the USA it was a whole range of things I picked up at various times, motors, controllers and some connector/wiring faults.
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[HarryB]

Yes I think the controllers are rubbish. In my experience the Tongxin motor has been faultless but it really suits small wheels. I can see more problems coming from the USA as it is more likely they want speed (not so constrained by the law as we are). This can only lead to problems with the roller drives.

I can see your engineering objections but the lack of drag, almost silent drive and light weight are something all hub manufacturers should be striving for.

 

[flecc]

Not that roller drive way I hope Hal!

I think the Suzhou Bafang used in the Quando is a much better proposition, using nylon gears. There's a small amount of the usual electric growling whine from very low revs, but it's quiet at normal speeds. Only slightly larger than the Nano and a half kilo heavier which I don't see as crucial, it comprehensively outperforms the Nano.

15 mph on a low battery, 18 mph fully charged, coupled with climbing 12% on an all up weight of 100 kilos including standing starts, without any pedalling. The controller seems tough too. I've often left it switched on when fully charging, which is supposed to be a bad thing according to the maker, but it's never protested, and will tolerate slight over-voltage.

Snag is, it's only geared for that in a 20" wheel, though they may make different versions. And of course, with that performance the range is shorter, though I can squeeze over 30 miles on the Q bike from 10 Ah at 36 volts on a new Li-ion.
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[HarryB]

Not that roller drive way I hope Hal!

I think the Suzhou Bafang used in the Quando is a much better proposition, using nylon gears. There's a small amount of the usual electric growling whine from very low revs, but it's quiet at normal speeds. Only slightly larger than the Nano and a half kilo heavier which I don't see as crucial, it comprehensively outperforms the Nano.

15 mph on a low battery, 18 mph fully charged, coupled with climbing 12% on an all up weight of 100 kilos including standing starts, without any pedalling. The controller seems tough too. I've often left it switched on when fully charging, which is supposed to be a bad thing according to the maker, but it's never protested, and will tolerate slight over-voltage.

Snag is, it's only geared for that in a 20" wheel, though they may make different versions. And of course, with that performance the range is shorter, though I can squeeze over 30 miles on the Q bike from 10 Ah at 36 volts on a new Li-ion.
.

I am sure that the Suzhou Bafang works well in a 20 inch wheel but doesn't do it for me in the Torq. Now I am fitter what I want is less drag above 15mph so looking forward to the Agattu and its zero drag. That will do the business for me.

 

[flecc]

Of course Hal. As I said in my intro to the Q bike, I think putting that Quando motor into 28" wheel was the wrong way to go, hopelessly overgeared and provoking more noise, just for the sake of a headline speed.

The Agattu or any Panasonic motor bike is an infinitely better pure cycling experience than any hub motor though, no matter how free the motor. Bike wheels are best just as bike wheels, nothing added.
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[frank9755]

I think my problem is controller but it could be motor - I can't tell for sure. As there's no alternative sensorless controller that I can get for my type of motor, wherever the current problem lies, I am exposed to controller faults. Since I got my kit there have been more problems with not just controllers but the motors too. In particular, the chap in Australia who i based my set-up on, has had his motor (not controller) fail. Now John has had motor problems.

Given all of this, I can't get enthusiastic about fiddling around with it further. I do hope that everyone's motors continue to perform as they are truly great when they work. If an alternative 36v sensorless controller emerges, I'll certainly get one and give it a go. But I can't get enthusiastic about trying to get another Tongxin one, fiddling around with it and having it fail within a forthnight.

I did toy with the idea of getting a Suzhou Bafang (which comes in a broad range of speeds) and doing something similar. The motor seems, powerful, reliable and robust, but, as Hal says, it doesn't quite have the wow factor of the Tongxin - it might work better, but it's a bit bigger, a bit more resistance, a bit noisier, a bit heavier...

So I've given up on electric kits for the moment at least.

 

[frank9755]

The Agattu or any Panasonic motor bike is an infinitely better pure cycling experience than any hub motor though, no matter how free the motor. Bike wheels are best just as bike wheels, nothing added.
.

I would agree with that absolutely for every other hub motor I have used - certainly including the Suzhou Bafang on my Wisper. But I do think the Tongxin is in a different class! I've not ridden an Agattu but I feel my diamond frame bike with a Tongxin is at least as pleasant to ride unpowered as a Lafree, with the more rigid frame helping and the tiny motor almost unnoticeable.

 

[flecc]

I feel my diamond frame bike with a Tongxin is at least as pleasant to ride unpowered as a Lafree, with the more rigid frame helping and the tiny motor almost unnoticeable.

So I understand Frank. I was thinking more of the added weight and inconvenience of a hub motor's connections when remarking a bike wheel is best just as that, nothing added, and the least weight to react with the road surface.
.

 

[frank9755]

I agree with that - from a cycling viewpoint, I see Tongxin hub motor as the next best thing to no hub motor at all!

 

[flecc]

I agree with that - from a cycling viewpoint, I see Tongxin hub motor as the next best thing to no hub motor at all!

But not as good as a Panasonic unit in the middle though! Weight in the best place, low and central.
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[HarryB]

I think my problem is controller but it could be motor - I can't tell for sure. As there's no alternative sensorless controller that I can get for my type of motor, wherever the current problem lies, I am exposed to controller faults. Since I got my kit there have been more problems with not just controllers but the motors too. In particular, the chap in Australia who i based my set-up on, has had his motor (not controller) fail. Now John has had motor problems.

Given all of this, I can't get enthusiastic about fiddling around with it further. I do hope that everyone's motors continue to perform as they are truly great when they work. If an alternative 36v sensorless controller emerges, I'll certainly get one and give it a go. But I can't get enthusiastic about trying to get another Tongxin one, fiddling around with it and having it fail within a forthnight.

I did toy with the idea of getting a Suzhou Bafang (which comes in a broad range of speeds) and doing something similar. The motor seems, powerful, reliable and robust, but, as Hal says, it doesn't quite have the wow factor of the Tongxin - it might work better, but it's a bit bigger, a bit more resistance, a bit noisier, a bit heavier...

So I've given up on electric kits for the moment at least.

Yes I remember at the time advising people to buy the hall sensor version as this doesn't tie you in to the Tongxin controller. From memory I think that you had already bought your motor so the advice didn't help you. I can see you would lose enthusiasm for the project after all the problems you have had. And I agree with you that it is the nearest thing to not having a hub motor, I do notice it when setting off but once on the move it is pretty good.

 

[flecc]

I did toy with the idea of getting a Suzhou Bafang (which comes in a broad range of speeds) and doing something similar. The motor seems, powerful, reliable and robust, but, as Hal says, it doesn't quite have the wow factor of the Tongxin

- it might work better, but it's a bit bigger, a bit more resistance, a bit noisier, a bit heavier...

But compared with the other geared hub motors, it's a bit smaller, a bit less resistance, a bit quieter, and a bit lighter.
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[frank9755]

Yes I remember at the time advising people to buy the hall sensor version as this doesn't tie you in to the Tongxin controller. From memory I think that you had already bought your motor so the advice didn't help you. I can see you would lose enthusiasm for the project after all the problems you have had. And I agree with you that it is the nearest thing to not having a hub motor, I do notice it when setting off but once on the move it is pretty good.

Yes, I remember you saying that, and yes, it was after I'd bought mine!

 

[frank9755]

But compared with the other geared hub motors, it's a bit smaller, a bit less resistance, a bit quieter, and a bit lighter.
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I actually find it pretty similar in those respects to the one on the Powacycle. I've not found a label on that one - maybe it's because it is a Bafang as well?

 

[flecc]

I actually find it pretty similar in those respects to the one on the Powacycle. I've not found a label on that one - maybe it's because it is a Bafang as well?

Unfair comparison Frank, the Powacyle is a peak power of 276 watts, the Suzhou 576 watts, more than double. In fairness it has to be like with like.
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[frank9755]

That's true, but isn't that output driven by the controller not the motor?
I've no idea what a Powacycle motor could do if someone was minded to fit a 36v controller and battery. I suspect it would be able to do a lot more. I really wouldn't be surprised if it was a Bafang as it is a similar size as that on my Wisper - and they do share a lot of other components!

 

[flecc]

Yes, it would produce just over 400 watts on 36 volts, but that's still a very long way short of the 576 watt Quando motor, which isn't the same as the Wisper one. The Wisper had some construction differences, is a lower geared hub, and judging from performance reports has a bit less power, though more range.

As a major supplier to manufacturers, I'd guess Suzhou have a few motor models. The new Torq 2 has yet another variation.

I still say that the Quando motor is very much lighter smaller etc than other geared hub motors, when compared like for like. It's natural competition is with Heinzmann, Powabyke and eZee's Sprint motor, siting around the same power areas, and it's very much smaller, lighter and quieter than any of those.
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[frank9755]

They do have a lot of models with different speeds and configurations.

Presumably with a different controller the Powacycle motor could be given more Amps too? For all I know that might fry it but I can't otherwise see why it couldn't be done. The Austrian chap who sells kits on ebay once told me that the different spec motors were basically the same but it just depended on what power you got the controller to give them. Anyway - I will shut up as don't want to make a big deal of it as I agree with your main point that it is a pretty neat hub motor!

Yes, the Wisper one is significantly slower geared than the Quando motor. I think the Quando/Torq is a 280 rpm and the Wisper one is most likely 235.