TongXin (a.k.a. Nano) motor project

[flecc]

I'm not side tracking and I'm not answerable to you in this manner on my postings Griz. I don't ask you to trot out proofs of what you post, so I'm not going to try to research all the postings that I've seen on the internet over the last year to find all the references to this. It's unreasonable to ask that since the implication is that I'm lying, nor is there any guarantee that those postings are all still accessible. For example, only a tiny proportion of the near 5000 postings I've made in this forum in just over a year are still available to be viewed due to storage and display restrictions. Even various pages from Tongxin themselves are no longer available.

I've shown the facts, and that's enough. Even if you unfairly discount drive failures experienced in the USA, the remainder of the facts means it cannot be anything remotely like the best at present. As with all products, I hope that development brings it to the point where it can be used without restrictions and be as capable as any other.

Finally, the irrelevances you introduce puzzle me. The Torq issues which were brake judder, spoke breakage, handlebar discomfort etc have absolutely no connection with this Nano issue. And now the legal aspect is just as disconnected, and I fail to see what you are getting at. This is solely about the Nano and relevant comparisons with rival motors, nothing else.
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[Grizzly Bear]

I'm not side tracking and I'm not answerable to you in this manner on my postings Griz. I don't ask you to trot out proofs of what you post, so I'm not going to try to research all the postings that I've seen on the internet over the last year to find all the references to this. It's unreasonable to ask that since the implication is that I'm lying, nor is there any guarantee that those postings are all still accessible. For example, only a tiny proportion of the near 5000 postings I've made in this forum in just over a year are still available to be viewed due to storage and display restrictions. Even various pages from Tongxin themselves are no longer available.

I've shown the facts, and that's enough. Even if you unfairly discount drive failures experienced in the USA, the remainder of the facts means it cannot be anything remotely like the best at present. As with all products, I hope that development brings it to the point where it can be used without restrictions and be as capable as any other.

Finally, the irrelevances you introduce puzzle me. The Torq issues which were brake judder, spoke breakage, handlebar discomfort etc have absolutely no connection with this Nano issue. And now the legal aspect is just as disconnected, and I fail to see what you are getting at. This is solely about the Nano and relevant comparisons with rival motors, nothing else.
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Tony I am not going to push this point with you, I am not suggesting you are lying, you are just commenting without being in posession of all the facts. The viewers of this thread I think will draw their own conclusions, it is not my intention to upset you and if I have then I'm sorry.

Regards Peter

 

[HarryB]

I am sorry Tony but I am not seeing the point of your arguments, answer my previous question, "drive failures" what failures? don't side track here please. You say you don't have an issue with the Nano, that's not coming through with your statements. As far as the comparisons you are making, remember that the Nano is UK legal. I have previously warned on this forum, that we ALL need to stay within the law for all our sakes, otherwise we will ALL be legistated against, which will be a great pity, 15mph and 200 watts max. to be classed as a bicycle remember?

It is certainly interesting what you say about legality. In the UK the 190 rpm motor in a 26" wheel would be legal and also, as you have proved, well within the specification of the Tongxin motor's roller drive. The same motor in a 700c wheel would not be considered within the letter of the law and suffers from excessive drive slippage leading to possible failure (if abused). The same can be said of the 260 rpm motor in a 700c motor except it will be even more illegal.

In this forum I don't remember seeing any criticism of the Tongxin motor when using it in a suitably matched wheel/motor rpm combination and nobody is stopping anybody doing any combination they want, but surely we should be allowed to offer some advice based on our experience and/or engineering expertise if we see a problem. Isn't that what this forum is for?

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Hi Harry
I totally agree, I have first hand experience of the Tongxin/Nano and I am passing that on for the benefit of other forum members, everything I have said about the motor is fact and not third hand information.

 

[flecc]

Tony I am not going to push this point with you, I am not suggesting you are lying, you are just commenting without being in posession of all the facts. The viewers of this thread I think will draw their own conclusions, it is not my intention to upset you and if I have then I'm sorry.

Regards Peter

Thanks Peter, I'm always happy for others to draw their own conclusions.

I just wish I could draw my own without them being challenged.
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[Grizzly Bear]

Thanks Peter, I'm always happy for others to draw their own conclusions.

I just wish I could draw my own without them being challenged.
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OK point taken, but is that not a vein throbbing out the side of you head Tony? Ha Ha

All the best mate

 

[flecc]

No veins Peter, my circulation is still returning after much of the day riding in intensive product testing. Some may commute every weekday, but I'm going out seven days a week for six months currently doing this.

No, I'm not going to say what with, top secret.

Wait six months.
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[Grizzly Bear]

No veins Peter, my circulation is still returning after much of the day riding in intensive product testing. Some may commute every weekday, but I'm going out seven days a week for six months currently doing this.

No, I'm not going to say what with, top secret.

Wait six months.
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You've got a Nano, haven't you? Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

 

[flecc]

Only the one operating the toilet flush.
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[Grizzly Bear]

Only the one operating the toilet flush.
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Oh that's so mean. Ha Ha Ha

just between you and me!? I've got another motor, not a Tongxin/Nano on order from Canada, more later!

 

[flecc]

Don't worry Griz, I won't let on it's a BionX.
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[coops]

re: how fast for 240W max input

Hi again Honk

I have already planned for the loss of motor assistance at high speeds.The controller will simply increse voltage to the motor until the 240W
power is reached. This will auto adjust the top RPM to match the speed
at which I am going until the 240W is being fully used.
As long as I don't abuse the motor by feeding it a lot more power than
this level it should be fine at these speeds. I'm looking for an average
speed of 20mph where I contribute by 10mph by peddeling.

Btw, I use an 28" bike. I plan to use the 24V 190 RPM Tongxin at maximum 36V

Your proposed use sounds interesting, similar to how I often use my Torq for best range on flattish routes by mostly pedalling up to 8-10mph before using motor assist.

Thanks for the extra information: with that voltage, rpm & wheel combination, the question of how fast 240W will get you mainly depend on motor & bike (aero) efficiency and how much pedal power you will usually contribute. I'd estimate about 325-330 rpm or 25.5-26mph maximum no-load wheel speed on a fresh charge (based on 285rpm @ 36V, 42V on fresh charge, 700C x 38 good rolling tyre), but with a 75% efficient motor (so about 180W output for 240W input) and say 50W legpower to compensate for those motor inefficiency losses, you might get around 18-19mph top speed (for average bike/rider aero profile, higher if its a more efficient recumbent), which might drop off a bit as the battery discharges, so still a little short of your desired 20mph: since you are designing your own controller though, I'm sure you can tweak the current or voltage to get that little bit extra if you want a little more current would make up the difference I think.

As I said though, I think that setup would rather baulk at the sight of hill but not a problem if you're in a very flat area .

I'll be interested to hear how you get on, good luck!

Stuart.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Don't worry Griz, I won't let on it's a BionX.
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You may think that, but I couldn't possibly comment, is the correct response I think

 

[Jeremy]

Some interesting points of view here.

As far as I can see there is no such thing as a "best" motor or battery set up, as we all have differing requirements. I don't have the option of a bottom bracket drive, for example, plus I don't want masses of power, so that led me to my "best" solution. Flecc obviously favours the Panasonic BB drive unit, as it suits his needs better than some of the other options. Someone who wanted maximum speed with little or no pedalling might opt for something like one of the big Crystalyte motors. Someone who wants to ride tens of miles each day might need an easily changed battery pack, so they can swap a discharged battery for a spare charged one. The variations on what is important to each of us is endless.

As we all most probably want something different, I can't really see much merit in proclaiming any one unit to be significantly better than another, major faults excepted.

For me, the Tongxin motor seems to offer the best solution, but I can readily accept that it may not be the best for everyone. I've already discovered that the Crystalyte motor was not my best option, but I wouldn't hesitate to say that it is very nicely made and has very good performance.

Thankfully we are all individuals!

Jeremy

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Thankfully we are all individuals!

Jeremy

Amen, and long may we be individuals.

 

[Honk]

Hi again Honk
As I said though, I think that setup would rather baulk at the sight of hill but not a problem if you're in a very flat area .

I'll be interested to hear how you get on, good luck!

Stuart.

Thanks Stuart. I look forward to this design myself.

Regarding the hill, the same rule applies there.
I'll use my legs as usual and then the motor will add the limited wattage on top of this.
This should make the hill a little easier but I will not let the motor do it all.
It's still up to me to climb that hill, with a little nice assist.

 

[flecc]

Flecc obviously favours the Panasonic BB drive unit, as it suits his needs better than some of the other options.

Though I totally agree with your overall conclusions, I wouldn't go this far Jeremy. My main two, the Q and T bikes are hub motor models, and I sold my Lafree Twist, since the custom Q bike outperformed it on all of my uses, including the steepest hill climbs and heaviest towing where the Panasonic system might have seemed the better option. In addition, motor for motor, drive through the gears is less efficient than wheel hub motors for most of the typical e-bike running time, due to the transmission losses.

But as a long standing cyclist, I appreciate and value the way in which the Panasonic system emulates normal cycling so accurately, and with the newer units having a higher power mode, overcoming in part the former objections and having extremely long range as well, it's a street I may well go down again shortly by using both.
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[coops]

Regarding the hill, the same rule applies there.
I'll use my legs as usual and then the motor will add the limited wattage on top of this.
This should make the hill a little easier but I will not let the motor do it all.
It's still up to me to climb that hill, with a little nice assist.

Very versatile then! That's similar again to how I find I use my Torq - it doesn't necessarily increase much the maximum gradient I can tackle, so I find I can ride on just about the same range of gradients as on an ordinary bike, only much easier & faster & for longer while still getting good exercise if I want. I think thats why, along with many others, I find the Torq works for me in terrain which is only really 'undulating', but can be a little slow or tiring at times & limiting in terms of range on a normal bike: its performance works well for me as an extension of rider power, speed & range, and it sounds like your idea could serve the same sort of function for a slightly flatter area or fitter rider.

I hope it all goes well for you, keep us posted .

Stuart.

 

[frank9755]

For long term followers of this thread, my replacement Tongxin controller arrived today - about a month after sending the old one back. Post from China takes a while, and additional delay was caused by the first replacement being sent to a wrong address.

It just occurred to me, as I was riding home tonight, that it may well have been a fault in my battery (which behaved oddly as described here) that fried my original controller, rather than the controller causing the fault. About a second later, it occurred to me that there might not actually have been anything wrong with my old controller, as I got exactly the same result when I connected that battery to my Wisper!

Oh well, I'll get the new one fixed up at the weekend and see what happens.

Frank

 

[flecc]

Good point Frank. It will be interesting to know the outcome, and I saw on the other thread that you don't intend using that battery again.

Hope all goes well and you get back in action.
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