Throttles - eScooters v eBikes

Hi all,

 

Since eScooters are legal (if rented in the UK) and they have throttles, wouldn't this be a good case to campaign for the return of throttles on ebikes?

 

I think it would make cycling more inclusive for people with disabilities to use as a disability aid.

 

Thoughts please

Whilst i might agree with you about throttles (i have one on mine and it is useful for setting off on hills and at lights), i don't think that using E scooters as a reason to bring them back is at all a good idea. They have had very bad press and some known fatalities so i doubt that throttles would be re-instated using E scooters as an example.

Ebike throttles can be used if one gets the bike msva tested or if one has throttle setting of pedal first to use it, it is no big deal to turns the cranks 1/4 - 1 turn to activate it if needed.

The main reason is to reduce the categorising of an e push bike in to a moped/scooter class.

 

It's quite simple if want's the ride to be too easy buy a moped/scooter otherwise treat the current regs as they are which is to allow them the same rights as push bikes.

Edited July 19, 20214 yr by Nealh

Since eScooters are legal (if rented in the UK) and they have throttles, wouldn't this be a good case to campaign for the return of throttles on ebikes?

 

There's no grounds for a campaign since pedelec full acting throttles are already permitted in Britain by getting single vehicle approval. Inconvenient and costs £55, but so what? It's inconvenient that motorists have to pay VED (road tax) and MOT their vehicles, but that's the law.

 

I think it would make cycling more inclusive for people with disabilities to use as a disability aid.

 

Theres already a 15.5 mph class for that. Formerly called Low Powered Moped but now L1e-A, it permits e-bicycles with up to 1000 watts nominal power. Clearly that is far more useful than a wimpey 250 watts for a disabled cyclist, so no point in a campaign. They have to be registered, insured and number plated, but no driving licence is needed. That class has been around for many years, but there's never been any demand for them so no-one makes them.

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Theres already a 15.5 mph class for that. Formerly called Low Powered Moped but now L1e-A, it permits e-bicycles with up to 1000 watts nominal power. They have to be registered, insured and number plated,

One issue (hearsay, not my direct knowledge) is that they are so rare that insurance companies aren't set up for providing cover, so insurance can be difficult to find and absurdly expensive.

One issue (hearsay, not my direct knowledge) is that they are so rare that insurance companies aren't set up for providing cover, so insurance can be difficult to find and absurdly expensive.

 

Yes, very likely until a manufacturer starts marketing one with the DVLA listing it.

 

Now they don't need a driving licence and have zero VED (road tax), I can't see how they couldn't become popular.

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Yes, very likely until a manufacturer starts marketing one with the DVLA listing it.

 

Now they don't need a driving licence and have zero VED (road tax), I can't see how they couldn't become popular.

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You almost make me think I'd go for one myself. Except, another serious limitation (compared to pedelecs) is that they are not permitted on cycle paths, bridleways, canal paths etc. Basically on road or BOATs (byways open to all traffic), or private land without public access.

You almost make me think I'd go for one myself. Except, another serious limitation (compared to pedelecs) is that they are not permitted on cycle paths, bridleways, canal paths etc. Basically on road or BOATs (byways open to all traffic), or private land without public access.

 

True, but for someone who only rides on roads, flattening the hills with four times the power rating and a throttle could be very appealing!

 

Great for towing a trailer too.

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True, but for someone who only rides on roads, flattening the hills with four times the power rating and a throttle could be very appealing!

 

Great for towing a trailer too.

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Absolutely. I think the current rules (250w 15.5 mph) allowing same access as a push bike, plus the extra L1e-A more restrictive alternative is about right.

 

So back to your earlier point: until a manufacturer starts marketing one with the DVLA listing

What do you think is holding manufacturers back from producing one and getting it listed? It's not technically difficult; there are lots out there already (though too many of them have direct drive motors)

So back to your earlier point: until a manufacturer starts marketing one with the DVLA listing

What do you think is holding manufacturers back from producing one and getting it listed? It's not technically difficult; there are lots out there already (though too many of them have direct drive motors)

 

Any present pedelec strong enough to take the extra weight with a much bigger battery and equipped with hydraulic brakes would be fine, but there are problems. One is that a geared hub or crank motor is needed but nylon gears wouldn't be up to the job as Heinzmann showed long ago. But steel gears tend to be noisy and certainly would be with four times the power.

 

And there's possibly a perception of no need. There's already the S class permitting a 500 watt rating and the appeal of 28 mph too, and three European countries permit those without a driving licence, reducing the market for a 1000 watt 15.5 mph one.

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There's no grounds for a campaign since pedelec full acting throttles are already permitted in Britain by getting single vehicle approval. Inconvenient and costs £55, but so what? It's inconvenient that motorists have to pay VED (road tax) and MOT their vehicles, but that's the law.

 

 

 

Theres already a 15.5 mph class for that. Formerly called Low Powered Moped but now L1e-A, it permits e-bicycles with up to 1000 watts nominal power. Clearly that is far more useful than a wimpey 250 watts for a disabled cyclist, so no point in a campaign. They have to be registered, insured and number plated, but no driving licence is needed. That class has been around for many years, but there's never been any demand for them so no-one makes them.

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In the MSVA manual in the forward and glosary section 29 page 200 they talk of the 250w low powered moped, a sub group of the LPM class.. Must be fitted with pedals. Must be fitted with a 250w motor. 15.5 mph What are these ? Do the need regestring after MSVA ? Can they be used in cycle lanes ?

In the MSVA manual in the forward and glosary section 29 page 200 they talk of the 250w low powered moped, a sub group of the LPM class.. Must be fitted with pedals. Must be fitted with a 250w motor. 15.5 mph What are these ? Do the need regestring after MSVA ? Can they be used in cycle lanes ?

 

It's a class exclusive to Great Britain, not legal in the rest of Europe. It was created by the DfT to satisfy those who wanted a fully acting throttle on their pedelec. They have to be taken through SVA, cost £55, and then can be used legally here as an ordinary pedelec with no other bureaucracy. No registration, insurance etc. Their class name is 250LPM.

 

To my knowledge only one has ever been created, a Wisper model put though SVA by Wisper at the Southampton testing station and of course they charge customers for doing that.

 

I think as a class it's died a death through lack of use. People just fit throttles anyway.

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It's a class exclusive to Great Britain, not legal in the rest of Europe. It was created by the DfT to satisfy those who wanted a fully acting throttle on their pedelec. They have to be taken through SVA, cost £55, and then can be used legally here as an ordinary pedelec with no other bureaucracy. No registration, insurance etc. Their class name is 250LPM.

 

To my knowledge only one has ever been created, a Wisper model put though SVA by Wisper at the Southampton testing station and of course they charge customers for doing that.

 

I think as a class it's d

It's a class exclusive to Great Britain, not legal in the rest of Europe. It was created by the DfT to satisfy those who wanted a fully acting throttle on their pedelec. They have to be taken through SVA, cost £55, and then can be used legally here as an ordinary pedelec with no other bureaucracy. No registration, insurance etc. Their class name is 250LPM.

 

To my knowledge only one has ever been created, a Wisper model put though SVA by Wisper at the Southampton testing station and of course they charge customers for doing that.

 

I think as a class it's died a death through lack of use. People just fit throttles anyway.

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Would it of not been easier to point the original poster to this way of getting a legal throttle rather than a thread with opinions and talk of licences and 1000 watt bikes. If people want to fit throtlles ilegaly without getting a MSVA that's their choice.

Would it of not been easier to point the original poster to this way of getting a legal throttle rather than a thread with opinions and talk of licences and 1000 watt bikes. If people want to fit throtlles ilegaly without getting a MSVA that's their choice.

 

Both Neil and I did in the second and third replies. You seem to have missed the point that 250LPM also needs SVA.

 

So the poster was given both options.

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Edited July 19, 20214 yr by flecc

Whilst i might agree with you about throttles (i have one on mine and it is useful for setting off on hills and at lights), i don't think that using E scooters as a reason to bring them back is at all a good idea. They have had very bad press and some known fatalities so i doubt that throttles would be re-instated using E scooters as an example.

 

I disagree,

Does anyone know why the legislation regarding throttles on ebikes was changed? (excluding the answer of just following the EU) why was it ok for years and then changed?

Does anyone know why the legislation regarding throttles on ebikes was changed? (excluding the answer of just following the EU) why was it ok for years and then changed?

 

The answer is that it wasn't ok for years, from 10th November 2003 onwards, throttles were always illegal on pedelecs. It's a long story, but that date was when we had to either choose to follow EU law and cancel our own law, or refuse before that date and ask for an opt out to go it alone.

 

The civil service messed up. They didn't ask for an opt out so we fell under EU rules by default, but they didn't cancel our conflicting law either. So we had two laws causing confusion for 12 years, the British one invalid, until the DfT finally tidied it up on 6th April 2015.

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Does anyone know why the legislation regarding throttles on ebikes was changed? (excluding the answer of just following the EU) why was it ok for years and then changed?

 

Because of the moped class which uses a twist & go throttle, before the law change the UK hadn't harmonised with the EU regs in law. They were only adopted officially and legally on 01.01.2016, before then we had a 12.5mph and 200w limit.

To allow twist & go, a different category as has been mentioned was introduced.

They were only adopted officially and legally on 01.01.2016, before then we had a 12.5mph and 200w limit.

 

Sorry Neal, but some corrections. The law was changed when parliament passed it on 6th April 2015 as posted above. The later date you've given was informal to allow by convention a minimum of six months for old stock clearance before full implementation at retail level.

 

And the maximum assist speed from the 1983 EAPC regulations on was 15 mph. Prior to that it was the 1970s law only allowing 12 mph.

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Edited July 20, 20214 yr by flecc

The answer is that it wasn't ok for years, from 10th November 2003 onwards, throttles were always illegal on pedelecs. It's a long story, but that date was when we had to either choose to follow EU law and cancel our own law, or refuse before that date and ask for an opt out to go it alone.

 

The civil service messed up. They didn't ask for an opt out so we fell under EU rules by default, but they didn't cancel our conflicting law either. So we had two laws causing confusion for 12 years, the British one invalid, until the DfT finally tidied it up on 6th April 2015.

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It seems to me that it was ok for years as you've stated below that from 1983 to 2003 15mph was legal. 20 years is clearly many years. So, the use case was simply to fall in line with the EU? Now we are out of the EU, what's to stop the law on throttles being changed?

It seems to me that it was ok for years as you've stated below that from 1983 to 2003 15mph was legal. 20 years is clearly many years. So, the use case was simply to fall in line with the EU? Now we are out of the EU, what's to stop the law on throttles being changed?

 

You are over simplifying it. Only the change to 15 mph in 1983 was to get closer to the EU's 25 kph. Nothing else was, we kept to our 200 watts rather than the EU's 250 watts, and what's more we also followed by introducing a 14 years lower age limit that no other EU country has.

 

And finally on the legal position, we have never at any time said that throttles were legal. Our poorly drafted law simply omitted to say how power was to be applied, the legislators probably assuming we'd do the same as the EU.

 

There is nothing to stop us changing the law now, but it won't be. That's because the government has made it clear that they want our law to stay aligned to the EU's. To facilitate that the Great Repeal bill was passed before we left the EU, which wrote all the previously accepted EU law from 44 years into British law.

 

And the government position on keeping EU alignment has been reinforced by them saying that if they do accept powered scooters into law, they want the EU's 20 kph (12.5 mph) limit for them, not the USA's 15 mph.

 

Yours is the latest of many attempts to get these changes, there's even been a petition to parliament, but I say to you as I have to all others, you are banging your head against a brick wall. It isn't going to happen so just be content with what we've got. Remember, it could just as easily be made worse.

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You are over simplifying it. Only the change to 15 mph in 1983 was to get closer to the EU's 25 kph. Nothing else was, we kept to our 200 watts rather than the EU's 250 watts, and what's more we also followed by introducing a 14 years lower age limit that no other EU country has.

 

And finally on the legal position, we have never at any time said that throttles were legal. Our poorly drafted law simply omitted to say how power was to be applied, the legislators probably assuming we'd do the same as the EU.

 

There is nothing to stop us changing the law now, but it won't be. That's because the government has made it clear that they want our law to stay aligned to the EU's. To facilitate that the Great Repeal bill was passed before we left the EU, which wrote all the previously accepted EU law from 44 years into British law.

 

And the government position on keeping EU alignment has been reinforced by them saying that if they do accept powered scooters into law, they want the EU's 20 kph (12.5 mph) limit for them, not the USA's 15 mph.

 

Yours is the latest of many attempts to get these changes, there's even been a petition to parliament, but I say to you as I have to all others, you are banging your head against a brick wall. It isn't going to happen so just be content with what we've got. Remember, it could just as easily be made worse.

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Flecc, what you've said could just as well be the opposite...if nothing was ever mentioned about throttles how can they be deemed illegal? It seems this was a grey area which has now been resolved, but in no way was it illegal otherwise manufactures wouldn't have been selling bikes with throttles.

 

I'm content, but I'm not thinking about me; moreso about cycling being accessible to other users: disabled, those recovering from injury etc. It's a shame the law changed, but I hope that one day it reverts back. Thanks for your input.

Flecc, what you've said could just as well be the opposite...if nothing was ever mentioned about throttles how can they be deemed illegal? It seems this was a grey area which has now been resolved, but in no way was it illegal otherwise manufactures wouldn't have been selling bikes with throttles.

 

Afraid not, as I said earlier throttles were illegal from 10th November 2003 and never at any point permitted in law. Agreed the manufacturers sold bikes with throttles after that date, but they were all illegal on the road as pedelecs. We protested many times about that and the police attempted prosecutions which I and BEBA had to stop them going ahead with.

 

That is because of that civil service mess up we accepted the EU two and Three Wheeled Type Approval law. It is that which gives us the exemption from being motor vehicles, BUT only if the power is applied by pedalling and ceases if pedalling stops. With a throttle they become motor vehicles with all that implies.

 

The police twice started prosecutions which I and BEBA had to stop and after protest to the DfT they held a meeting of interested parties to sort this out. At that meeting on the 13th Apri 2013 the police agreed to operate a waiver that they would not prosecute from then since the DfT intended to change the law, which they did two years later, as said, 6th April 2015.

 

Believe me, it's a brave or foolhardy man who tries to correct me on this subject. After all it was only my knowledge of ALL of it that stopped the police prosecutions.

 

Have a read of this link and you'll have the whole picture on pedelec law.

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Edited July 21, 20214 yr by flecc

It seems to me that it was ok for years as you've stated below that from 1983 to 2003 15mph was legal. 20 years is clearly many years. So, the use case was simply to fall in line with the EU? Now we are out of the EU, what's to stop the law on throttles being changed?

 

Thanks for the link, I'll have a look. I was referring to the period between 1983-2003. Are you saying throttles were illegal then too, by omission?

Thanks for the link, I'll have a look. I was referring to the period between 1983-2003. Are you saying throttles were illegal then too, by omission?

 

No, they were legal then by omission.

 

Seriously, read through on that link. It's a long post but if you read it through you'll understand the whole sorry story of why we are where we are. And not just through EU law which actually greatly improved our lot.

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