Throttles - eScooters v eBikes

[UrbanPuma]

Hi all,

Since eScooters are legal (if rented in the UK) and they have throttles, wouldn't this be a good case to campaign for the return of throttles on ebikes?

I think it would make cycling more inclusive for people with disabilities to use as a disability aid.

Thoughts please

 

[Lancslass]

Whilst i might agree with you about throttles (i have one on mine and it is useful for setting off on hills and at lights), i don't think that using E scooters as a reason to bring them back is at all a good idea. They have had very bad press and some known fatalities so i doubt that throttles would be re-instated using E scooters as an example.

 

[Nealh]

Ebike throttles can be used if one gets the bike msva tested or if one has throttle setting of pedal first to use it, it is no big deal to turns the cranks 1/4 - 1 turn to activate it if needed.
The main reason is to reduce the categorising of an e push bike in to a moped/scooter class.

It's quite simple if want's the ride to be too easy buy a moped/scooter otherwise treat the current regs as they are which is to allow them the same rights as push bikes.

 

[flecc]

Since eScooters are legal (if rented in the UK) and they have throttles, wouldn't this be a good case to campaign for the return of throttles on ebikes?

There's no grounds for a campaign since pedelec full acting throttles are already permitted in Britain by getting single vehicle approval. Inconvenient and costs £55, but so what? It's inconvenient that motorists have to pay VED (road tax) and MOT their vehicles, but that's the law.

I think it would make cycling more inclusive for people with disabilities to use as a disability aid.

Theres already a 15.5 mph class for that. Formerly called Low Powered Moped but now L1e-A, it permits e-bicycles with up to 1000 watts nominal power. Clearly that is far more useful than a wimpey 250 watts for a disabled cyclist, so no point in a campaign. They have to be registered, insured and number plated, but no driving licence is needed. That class has been around for many years, but there's never been any demand for them so no-one makes them.
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[sjpt]

Theres already a 15.5 mph class for that. Formerly called Low Powered Moped but now L1e-A, it permits e-bicycles with up to 1000 watts nominal power. They have to be registered, insured and number plated,

One issue (hearsay, not my direct knowledge) is that they are so rare that insurance companies aren't set up for providing cover, so insurance can be difficult to find and absurdly expensive.

 

[flecc]

One issue (hearsay, not my direct knowledge) is that they are so rare that insurance companies aren't set up for providing cover, so insurance can be difficult to find and absurdly expensive.

Yes, very likely until a manufacturer starts marketing one with the DVLA listing it.

Now they don't need a driving licence and have zero VED (road tax), I can't see how they couldn't become popular.
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[sjpt]

Yes, very likely until a manufacturer starts marketing one with the DVLA listing it.

Now they don't need a driving licence and have zero VED (road tax), I can't see how they couldn't become popular.
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You almost make me think I'd go for one myself. Except, another serious limitation (compared to pedelecs) is that they are not permitted on cycle paths, bridleways, canal paths etc. Basically on road or BOATs (byways open to all traffic), or private land without public access.

 

[flecc]

You almost make me think I'd go for one myself. Except, another serious limitation (compared to pedelecs) is that they are not permitted on cycle paths, bridleways, canal paths etc. Basically on road or BOATs (byways open to all traffic), or private land without public access.

True, but for someone who only rides on roads, flattening the hills with four times the power rating and a throttle could be very appealing!

Great for towing a trailer too.
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[sjpt]

True, but for someone who only rides on roads, flattening the hills with four times the power rating and a throttle could be very appealing!

Great for towing a trailer too.
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Absolutely. I think the current rules (250w 15.5 mph) allowing same access as a push bike, plus the extra L1e-A more restrictive alternative is about right.

So back to your earlier point: until a manufacturer starts marketing one with the DVLA listing
What do you think is holding manufacturers back from producing one and getting it listed? It's not technically difficult; there are lots out there already (though too many of them have direct drive motors)

 

[flecc]

So back to your earlier point: until a manufacturer starts marketing one with the DVLA listing
What do you think is holding manufacturers back from producing one and getting it listed? It's not technically difficult; there are lots out there already (though too many of them have direct drive motors)

Any present pedelec strong enough to take the extra weight with a much bigger battery and equipped with hydraulic brakes would be fine, but there are problems. One is that a geared hub or crank motor is needed but nylon gears wouldn't be up to the job as Heinzmann showed long ago. But steel gears tend to be noisy and certainly would be with four times the power.

And there's possibly a perception of no need. There's already the S class permitting a 500 watt rating and the appeal of 28 mph too, and three European countries permit those without a driving licence, reducing the market for a 1000 watt 15.5 mph one.
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[Craiggor 2]

There's no grounds for a campaign since pedelec full acting throttles are already permitted in Britain by getting single vehicle approval. Inconvenient and costs £55, but so what? It's inconvenient that motorists have to pay VED (road tax) and MOT their vehicles, but that's the law.



Theres already a 15.5 mph class for that. Formerly called Low Powered Moped but now L1e-A, it permits e-bicycles with up to 1000 watts nominal power. Clearly that is far more useful than a wimpey 250 watts for a disabled cyclist, so no point in a campaign. They have to be registered, insured and number plated, but no driving licence is needed. That class has been around for many years, but there's never been any demand for them so no-one makes them.
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In the MSVA manual in the forward and glosary section 29 page 200 they talk of the 250w low powered moped, a sub group of the LPM class.. Must be fitted with pedals. Must be fitted with a 250w motor. 15.5 mph What are these ? Do the need regestring after MSVA ? Can they be used in cycle lanes ?

 

[flecc]

In the MSVA manual in the forward and glosary section 29 page 200 they talk of the 250w low powered moped, a sub group of the LPM class.. Must be fitted with pedals. Must be fitted with a 250w motor. 15.5 mph What are these ? Do the need regestring after MSVA ? Can they be used in cycle lanes ?

It's a class exclusive to Great Britain, not legal in the rest of Europe. It was created by the DfT to satisfy those who wanted a fully acting throttle on their pedelec. They have to be taken through SVA, cost £55, and then can be used legally here as an ordinary pedelec with no other bureaucracy. No registration, insurance etc. Their class name is 250LPM.

To my knowledge only one has ever been created, a Wisper model put though SVA by Wisper at the Southampton testing station and of course they charge customers for doing that.

I think as a class it's died a death through lack of use. People just fit throttles anyway.
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[Craiggor 2]

It's a class exclusive to Great Britain, not legal in the rest of Europe. It was created by the DfT to satisfy those who wanted a fully acting throttle on their pedelec. They have to be taken through SVA, cost £55, and then can be used legally here as an ordinary pedelec with no other bureaucracy. No registration, insurance etc. Their class name is 250LPM.

To my knowledge only one has ever been created, a Wisper model put though SVA by Wisper at the Southampton testing station and of course they charge customers for doing that.

I think as a class it's d

It's a class exclusive to Great Britain, not legal in the rest of Europe. It was created by the DfT to satisfy those who wanted a fully acting throttle on their pedelec. They have to be taken through SVA, cost £55, and then can be used legally here as an ordinary pedelec with no other bureaucracy. No registration, insurance etc. Their class name is 250LPM.

To my knowledge only one has ever been created, a Wisper model put though SVA by Wisper at the Southampton testing station and of course they charge customers for doing that.

I think as a class it's died a death through lack of use. People just fit throttles anyway.
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Would it of not been easier to point the original poster to this way of getting a legal throttle rather than a thread with opinions and talk of licences and 1000 watt bikes. If people want to fit throtlles ilegaly without getting a MSVA that's their choice.

 

[flecc]

Would it of not been easier to point the original poster to this way of getting a legal throttle rather than a thread with opinions and talk of licences and 1000 watt bikes. If people want to fit throtlles ilegaly without getting a MSVA that's their choice.

Both Neil and I did in the second and third replies. You seem to have missed the point that 250LPM also needs SVA.

So the poster was given both options.
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[UrbanPuma]

Whilst i might agree with you about throttles (i have one on mine and it is useful for setting off on hills and at lights), i don't think that using E scooters as a reason to bring them back is at all a good idea. They have had very bad press and some known fatalities so i doubt that throttles would be re-instated using E scooters as an example.

I disagree,

 

[UrbanPuma]

Does anyone know why the legislation regarding throttles on ebikes was changed? (excluding the answer of just following the EU) why was it ok for years and then changed?

 

[flecc]

Does anyone know why the legislation regarding throttles on ebikes was changed? (excluding the answer of just following the EU) why was it ok for years and then changed?

The answer is that it wasn't ok for years, from 10th November 2003 onwards, throttles were always illegal on pedelecs. It's a long story, but that date was when we had to either choose to follow EU law and cancel our own law, or refuse before that date and ask for an opt out to go it alone.

The civil service messed up. They didn't ask for an opt out so we fell under EU rules by default, but they didn't cancel our conflicting law either. So we had two laws causing confusion for 12 years, the British one invalid, until the DfT finally tidied it up on 6th April 2015.
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[Nealh]

Does anyone know why the legislation regarding throttles on ebikes was changed? (excluding the answer of just following the EU) why was it ok for years and then changed?

Because of the moped class which uses a twist & go throttle, before the law change the UK hadn't harmonised with the EU regs in law. They were only adopted officially and legally on 01.01.2016, before then we had a 12.5mph and 200w limit.
To allow twist & go, a different category as has been mentioned was introduced.

 

[flecc]

They were only adopted officially and legally on 01.01.2016, before then we had a 12.5mph and 200w limit.

Sorry Neal, but some corrections. The law was changed when parliament passed it on 6th April 2015 as posted above. The later date you've given was informal to allow by convention a minimum of six months for old stock clearance before full implementation at retail level.

And the maximum assist speed from the 1983 EAPC regulations on was 15 mph. Prior to that it was the 1970s law only allowing 12 mph.
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[UrbanPuma]

The answer is that it wasn't ok for years, from 10th November 2003 onwards, throttles were always illegal on pedelecs. It's a long story, but that date was when we had to either choose to follow EU law and cancel our own law, or refuse before that date and ask for an opt out to go it alone.

The civil service messed up. They didn't ask for an opt out so we fell under EU rules by default, but they didn't cancel our conflicting law either. So we had two laws causing confusion for 12 years, the British one invalid, until the DfT finally tidied it up on 6th April 2015.
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It seems to me that it was ok for years as you've stated below that from 1983 to 2003 15mph was legal. 20 years is clearly many years. So, the use case was simply to fall in line with the EU? Now we are out of the EU, what's to stop the law on throttles being changed?