Throttle use Poll
- Thread starter Wisper Bikes
- Start date
Thanks again to you all, we are now writing a response to the BAGB's letter to Bike Biz and others re the new proposals and the comments here have been exceedingly useful. It is fantastic to get the views of the people who actually use pedalecs rather than us in the industry all trying to second guess your wants and needs.
If you have not yet voted please still do so, we will no doubt be referring back to this thread and I will publish a link in the letter.
All the best
david
If you have not yet voted please still do so, we will no doubt be referring back to this thread and I will publish a link in the letter.
All the best
david
Last edited:
Hi Pollsters,
Really happy to see the poll results so far.
A throttle is important and should not be made illegal. I will be contentious here and suggest that to remove throttles from ebikes would be less than - non discriminatory.
Not only do throttles help to avoid low speed wobble (pointed out by JuicyBike) and aid with hill starts and filtering through traffic (when not enough of the cycle lane is left for you to pedal), and tightly controlled manoeuvres where the pedal assist may come on too strong but.....and I think most importantly........
they help many of our less abled customers have the freedom that many of us take for granted.
We provide hundreds of custom made products every year to people with health and mobility concerns and the vast majority of them would not find the control they need using a pedelec system.
I appreciate mainstream bicycle manufacturers will respond to the needs of the mass market first and minimise their warranty issues by excluding the use of throttles but I hope as an industry we dont forget about the customers that supported us from the start and allowed the rest to happen.
I voted for I always use the throttle but really it is occasionally for more accurate control rather than a rest.
Really happy to see the poll results so far.
A throttle is important and should not be made illegal. I will be contentious here and suggest that to remove throttles from ebikes would be less than - non discriminatory.
Not only do throttles help to avoid low speed wobble (pointed out by JuicyBike) and aid with hill starts and filtering through traffic (when not enough of the cycle lane is left for you to pedal), and tightly controlled manoeuvres where the pedal assist may come on too strong but.....and I think most importantly........
they help many of our less abled customers have the freedom that many of us take for granted.
We provide hundreds of custom made products every year to people with health and mobility concerns and the vast majority of them would not find the control they need using a pedelec system.
I appreciate mainstream bicycle manufacturers will respond to the needs of the mass market first and minimise their warranty issues by excluding the use of throttles but I hope as an industry we dont forget about the customers that supported us from the start and allowed the rest to happen.
I voted for I always use the throttle but really it is occasionally for more accurate control rather than a rest.
Letter to trade press, following the results from this poll.
BEBA has been monitoring the recent opinions of ETRA and various other bicycle groups regarding the proposed changes to the Motor Cycles Framework Regulation COM (2010) 542 by the IMCO Commission of the European Parliament with great interest.
BEBA represents the interests of members who predominantly specialise in the manufacture and distribution of electrically assisted bicycles. We believe we have a balanced and complete understanding of the regulations and rules governing the use of electric bicycles in both the UK and Europe. Because our members are predominantly electric bike specialists we probably have the best understanding of the needs and wants of the UK electric bicycle buying public.
It is our opinion that the changes proposed by ETRA are not only good for the industry but will also encourage an increasing number of people away from their cars and vans and onto electrically assisted pedal cycles and tricycles. Which is beneficial to the whole cycle industry. To try and create differences between what is acceptable in the UK and in Europe can only be harmful, driving up prices in the UK and perpetuating the confusion between what is acceptable in the UK and the rest of Europe.
It is important to understand that the proposed changes to the wattage of the motor will not effect acceleration or top speed. Through electronic regulation bikes will still have to be within the parameters of the existing European standard EN15194. Higher wattage motors may increase the weight of a bicycle but by no more than 1kg. Although the detail is not clear it seems that most manufacturers will have to reduce the weight of their bicycles to meet the new 25kg maximum weight limit if they want to retain a full throttle. Consequently any extra power will simply be used to enable electrically assisted bicycles to negotiate steeper inclines or carry heavier loads. This in turn will allow older people, those with health issues and some delivery services such as the post office to use electrically assisted bicycles instead of conventional vehicles associated with road congestion and pollution.
The issue of “twist and go” throttles in our opinion is reasonably straightforward. They are legally fitted to more than 80% of all electric bikes currently in use in the UK without any issues as far as we can ascertain. We understand from recent consultation with electric bike riders in the UK that the twist and go throttle is considered a huge benefit in terms of safety and usability.
In the experience of riders in the UK the throttle is an invaluable asset for the riders safety in the following real world conditions:
Stability. When riding on sand, snow or ice, a throttle provides enhanced stability. A rider can stop pedalling and lower their centre of gravity whilst still slowly moving forward.
Keeping clear of heavy traffic. Riders find they are able to ride much closer to the kerb when forced to do so by other traffic, the danger of catching a pedal on the kerb is reduced to becoming almost insignificant.
Faster and safer starts. The use of a throttle will help get a bike moving quickly, reducing wobble during take off, particularly when at the front of a queue at traffic lights, on hills or crossing busy roads. Being able to simply twist a throttle to add boost is far safer than trying to stand up on the pedals to get the bike moving to a safe speed.
Speed control. Riders can move slowly yet steadily on busy cycle paths and avoid situations where they are in too high a gear and can't easily maintain forward motion.
Speed boost. Being able to accelerate at a moments notice is valuable for getting out of the way of motorists in dangerous situations.
We must stress that we do not approve of electric bikes exceeding the 15.5mph limit being used on the public highway or cycle paths.
Whilst most non-electric riders could live without a throttle there does not seem to be any good reason to remove its use from future electric bicycles.
From a recent study of electric bikes owners preferences we have discovered that of those who have the benefit of twist and go throttle in the UK*;
7% never use the throttle.
24% use throttle on start up to help get going and for safety reasons.
28% use the throttle occasionally to rest legs/heart/lungs.
41% always use the throttle.
Electric bicycles are not normally associated with young and fit individuals who ride a pedal cycle for pleasure or a few miles to and from their place of work. They are predominantly purchased by those who would not normally consider a bicycle at all and others who appreciate assistance on a long commute and would prefer to arrive at their destination without needing a shower.
Electric bicycles remain a key growth area in the UK cycle market however manufacturers, distributors and cycling organisations must take note of the consumers needs.
BEBA are fully supportive of making cycling more available to everyone, including less abled riders, offering them the freedom that so many of us already take for granted. We strongly believe that the proposed changes to the current legislation will further open cycling to all.
David Miall
Chairman
British Electric Bicycle Association
0773 3226906
davidm@beba-online.co.uk
www.beba-online.co.uk
*www. pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/10527-throttle-use-poll.html
BEBA has been monitoring the recent opinions of ETRA and various other bicycle groups regarding the proposed changes to the Motor Cycles Framework Regulation COM (2010) 542 by the IMCO Commission of the European Parliament with great interest.
BEBA represents the interests of members who predominantly specialise in the manufacture and distribution of electrically assisted bicycles. We believe we have a balanced and complete understanding of the regulations and rules governing the use of electric bicycles in both the UK and Europe. Because our members are predominantly electric bike specialists we probably have the best understanding of the needs and wants of the UK electric bicycle buying public.
It is our opinion that the changes proposed by ETRA are not only good for the industry but will also encourage an increasing number of people away from their cars and vans and onto electrically assisted pedal cycles and tricycles. Which is beneficial to the whole cycle industry. To try and create differences between what is acceptable in the UK and in Europe can only be harmful, driving up prices in the UK and perpetuating the confusion between what is acceptable in the UK and the rest of Europe.
It is important to understand that the proposed changes to the wattage of the motor will not effect acceleration or top speed. Through electronic regulation bikes will still have to be within the parameters of the existing European standard EN15194. Higher wattage motors may increase the weight of a bicycle but by no more than 1kg. Although the detail is not clear it seems that most manufacturers will have to reduce the weight of their bicycles to meet the new 25kg maximum weight limit if they want to retain a full throttle. Consequently any extra power will simply be used to enable electrically assisted bicycles to negotiate steeper inclines or carry heavier loads. This in turn will allow older people, those with health issues and some delivery services such as the post office to use electrically assisted bicycles instead of conventional vehicles associated with road congestion and pollution.
The issue of “twist and go” throttles in our opinion is reasonably straightforward. They are legally fitted to more than 80% of all electric bikes currently in use in the UK without any issues as far as we can ascertain. We understand from recent consultation with electric bike riders in the UK that the twist and go throttle is considered a huge benefit in terms of safety and usability.
In the experience of riders in the UK the throttle is an invaluable asset for the riders safety in the following real world conditions:
Stability. When riding on sand, snow or ice, a throttle provides enhanced stability. A rider can stop pedalling and lower their centre of gravity whilst still slowly moving forward.
Keeping clear of heavy traffic. Riders find they are able to ride much closer to the kerb when forced to do so by other traffic, the danger of catching a pedal on the kerb is reduced to becoming almost insignificant.
Faster and safer starts. The use of a throttle will help get a bike moving quickly, reducing wobble during take off, particularly when at the front of a queue at traffic lights, on hills or crossing busy roads. Being able to simply twist a throttle to add boost is far safer than trying to stand up on the pedals to get the bike moving to a safe speed.
Speed control. Riders can move slowly yet steadily on busy cycle paths and avoid situations where they are in too high a gear and can't easily maintain forward motion.
Speed boost. Being able to accelerate at a moments notice is valuable for getting out of the way of motorists in dangerous situations.
We must stress that we do not approve of electric bikes exceeding the 15.5mph limit being used on the public highway or cycle paths.
Whilst most non-electric riders could live without a throttle there does not seem to be any good reason to remove its use from future electric bicycles.
From a recent study of electric bikes owners preferences we have discovered that of those who have the benefit of twist and go throttle in the UK*;
7% never use the throttle.
24% use throttle on start up to help get going and for safety reasons.
28% use the throttle occasionally to rest legs/heart/lungs.
41% always use the throttle.
Electric bicycles are not normally associated with young and fit individuals who ride a pedal cycle for pleasure or a few miles to and from their place of work. They are predominantly purchased by those who would not normally consider a bicycle at all and others who appreciate assistance on a long commute and would prefer to arrive at their destination without needing a shower.
Electric bicycles remain a key growth area in the UK cycle market however manufacturers, distributors and cycling organisations must take note of the consumers needs.
BEBA are fully supportive of making cycling more available to everyone, including less abled riders, offering them the freedom that so many of us already take for granted. We strongly believe that the proposed changes to the current legislation will further open cycling to all.
David Miall
Chairman
British Electric Bicycle Association
0773 3226906
davidm@beba-online.co.uk
www.beba-online.co.uk
*www. pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/10527-throttle-use-poll.html
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Also, I am not too sure about the 25kg limit which seems to be a bit low. Does it include fittings such as panniers?
What about the various cargo bikes etc.
What about the various cargo bikes etc.
well if an E bike cant stay below this figure then it can hardly be considered a bike. Bigger motors mean bigger battery's means bigger frames to support the weight etc...etc.....
Getting further away from cycling at every step and not going in the direction I like at all!
and for those that say weight dont matter, I can assure you the difference in cycling pleasure between our Wispers we sold last year, which were not a bad weight at approx 23 Kg and my present less then 20 kg e bike is a real eye opener.....
Getting further away from cycling at every step and not going in the direction I like at all!
and for those that say weight dont matter, I can assure you the difference in cycling pleasure between our Wispers we sold last year, which were not a bad weight at approx 23 Kg and my present less then 20 kg e bike is a real eye opener.....
It is important to remember that the 25kg limit is for bikes that can operate on throttle only. Pedelec 2 wheelers can still be up to 40kg and 3 wheelers 60.
All the best
David
All the best
David
Just received from the Chairman of LEVA......
It is clear from reading David Miall's statement, that he and BEBA have a far better understanding of the real issues of every day use that face electric bicycle rider, than BAGB.
Manual bicycles are rather special in that they are part of sport, fitness, culture, an--in the western world to a less extent--transportation. I suggest that the average riders of manual bicycles are often more skilled, and stronger than the average riders of electric bicycles. And younger as well. One of the faults that I have found in the USA bicycle industry is that the decision makers, managers and staff at nearly all levels have a passion for the sport or fitness aspects of cycling. And that this makes it hard for the industry to understand that there are a lot more old, heavy, pregnant, injured, motion limited, or simply people with a different view of cycling - that there are ex bicycle racers, triathletes, and mountain bike enthusiasts. The assumption that all cyclists are strong and fit (or should be) simply does not apply to bicycles-as-transportation. The assumptions that a fit, strong, skilled cyclist, who loves manual bikes, makes about the use of an electric bike are usually colored by capabilities and attitudes that are simply not shared by the users of electric bikes - and frankly, the fit, strong, cycling enthusiast is a minority, all over the world.
Electric bicycles are not sport or fitness…they are transportation. And they enable people who are not as fit, or strong, or who wish to arrive at their destination without need of a shower, or simply desire more comfort and utility from their vehicle. Electric bike riders are typically focused on getting to their destination. Like most of us on our way to work, they are in a bit of a hurry, and during their commute there is no time for anything except utility and safety issues. They have no interest in the culture and sport of cycling, nor should they be expected to have such interest, or share the view of manual / sport cyclists.
I note that Miall clearly articulated a point that may not be apparent to a non-electric bike user.
To reduce the utility of the electric bike by requiring the rider to pedal a few strokes before the power comes on seems intuitive to manual bicycle riders, but is not as safe or useful as a throttle in actual use - by the transport oriented rider.
I frequently ride my electric bike on errands, and I find every traffic light and stop sign is a bit worrisome. I had the same issue on my manual bike.
Accelerating into an intersection as the light changes, or one's turn occurs, is a tense moment. For a few seconds, I am struggling to get up to speed, and I want to clear the intersection before the light changes.
My attention is on staying safe alongside an accelerating stream of traffic.
A pedal activated motor means a few seconds of struggling to get the bike moving, with attention on pushing down pedals while wobbling a bit at dead slow speeds. Not comfortable, less safe than we might wish, and unpleasant.
With a throttle controlled bike, I can pay attention to traffic, and accelerate with a combination of human and electric power that makes the intersection much less intimidating, clearing it more quickly, smoothly and without wobbling.
My compliments to BEBA for being aware of actual conditions, and articulating them well. Their understanding of the e-bike consumer is exactly why organizations like BEBA, ETRA, and LEVA are needed.
Edward Benjamin
Chairman, Light Electric Vehicle Association
Florida, January 19, 2012
It is clear from reading David Miall's statement, that he and BEBA have a far better understanding of the real issues of every day use that face electric bicycle rider, than BAGB.
Manual bicycles are rather special in that they are part of sport, fitness, culture, an--in the western world to a less extent--transportation. I suggest that the average riders of manual bicycles are often more skilled, and stronger than the average riders of electric bicycles. And younger as well. One of the faults that I have found in the USA bicycle industry is that the decision makers, managers and staff at nearly all levels have a passion for the sport or fitness aspects of cycling. And that this makes it hard for the industry to understand that there are a lot more old, heavy, pregnant, injured, motion limited, or simply people with a different view of cycling - that there are ex bicycle racers, triathletes, and mountain bike enthusiasts. The assumption that all cyclists are strong and fit (or should be) simply does not apply to bicycles-as-transportation. The assumptions that a fit, strong, skilled cyclist, who loves manual bikes, makes about the use of an electric bike are usually colored by capabilities and attitudes that are simply not shared by the users of electric bikes - and frankly, the fit, strong, cycling enthusiast is a minority, all over the world.
Electric bicycles are not sport or fitness…they are transportation. And they enable people who are not as fit, or strong, or who wish to arrive at their destination without need of a shower, or simply desire more comfort and utility from their vehicle. Electric bike riders are typically focused on getting to their destination. Like most of us on our way to work, they are in a bit of a hurry, and during their commute there is no time for anything except utility and safety issues. They have no interest in the culture and sport of cycling, nor should they be expected to have such interest, or share the view of manual / sport cyclists.
I note that Miall clearly articulated a point that may not be apparent to a non-electric bike user.
To reduce the utility of the electric bike by requiring the rider to pedal a few strokes before the power comes on seems intuitive to manual bicycle riders, but is not as safe or useful as a throttle in actual use - by the transport oriented rider.
I frequently ride my electric bike on errands, and I find every traffic light and stop sign is a bit worrisome. I had the same issue on my manual bike.
Accelerating into an intersection as the light changes, or one's turn occurs, is a tense moment. For a few seconds, I am struggling to get up to speed, and I want to clear the intersection before the light changes.
My attention is on staying safe alongside an accelerating stream of traffic.
A pedal activated motor means a few seconds of struggling to get the bike moving, with attention on pushing down pedals while wobbling a bit at dead slow speeds. Not comfortable, less safe than we might wish, and unpleasant.
With a throttle controlled bike, I can pay attention to traffic, and accelerate with a combination of human and electric power that makes the intersection much less intimidating, clearing it more quickly, smoothly and without wobbling.
My compliments to BEBA for being aware of actual conditions, and articulating them well. Their understanding of the e-bike consumer is exactly why organizations like BEBA, ETRA, and LEVA are needed.
Edward Benjamin
Chairman, Light Electric Vehicle Association
Florida, January 19, 2012
Thanks yet again to everyone that has participated in this discussion, it just goes to show if we work together, we can as a team actually make a real difference.
David
David
Thank you David for your stalwart endeavours on our behalf. Perhaps the powers that be may, for once, reach an informed conclusion to their discussions, such that we may all benefit.
If this goes ahead, how long do you think it will be before higher wattage bikes are retailed?
If this goes ahead, how long do you think it will be before higher wattage bikes are retailed?
My concern is the potential market. Just as the Chairman of LEVA writes about the industry being managed by fit, sporting oriented types who skew the product to what they consider suitable, so we, the e-bike users only consider using the latest type of batteries. However, Lithium is expensive, and with approaching austerity, lead acid batteries may yet once again become attractive.
As has been pointed out, a lot of e-bike users are older, less fit people. many of these may be pensioners or low paid (In fact e-bikes should be attractive to people who cannot afford cars).
It follows therefore that in order to increase sales in this area of the population, forward thinking manufacturers might well wish to return to lead acid in order to offer cheaper bikes.
I have had a number of older people ask about my bike, but you can see them wince when I mention how much it cost. I have never reached the point of telling them about how often a battery needs replacing and at what cost.
Thanks Eaglerider, there are a group of us within BEBA who have been working towards a better deal for electric bikers for a couple of years now, I am simply the mouth piece!
Hi Mike, I do understand your concerns, however now the Chinese electric bike market has started to turn to Lithium the price s sure to drop due to the laws of supply and demand. The market will find a way of bringing prices down. The introduction of lithium sulphur over the next few years that do not use expensive metals such as cobalt will help considerably. Lithium is plentiful and I am sure the price will reduce.
Regards
David
Hi Mike, I do understand your concerns, however now the Chinese electric bike market has started to turn to Lithium the price s sure to drop due to the laws of supply and demand. The market will find a way of bringing prices down. The introduction of lithium sulphur over the next few years that do not use expensive metals such as cobalt will help considerably. Lithium is plentiful and I am sure the price will reduce.
Regards
David
Thanks David,
I feel that it is only the high price of the bikes, a good part of which is the battery, that deters many older folk.
Mike
I feel that it is only the high price of the bikes, a good part of which is the battery, that deters many older folk.
Mike
It ain't all them and us though........The popularity with the introduction of the Bosch system seems to be blurring the lines a bit..In Germany the Haibike with its excellent off road ability and light weight has been enthusiastically adopted by the off road sports fraternity, who are really appreciating the climbing assistance the system provides....
It makes me laugh though when you see a chap saying he has just done 130km on ECO 1 setting (lowest of 16 settings) when surely he does not need an e bike at all and would probably better served with a bike half the weight.....
It makes me laugh though when you see a chap saying he has just done 130km on ECO 1 setting (lowest of 16 settings) when surely he does not need an e bike at all and would probably better served with a bike half the weight.....
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