Thinking that Gazelle Easy Glider suits best

[Angus]

Hi, my first post here.
I travel mostly by bicycle, it’s the better half that needs the assistance, especially for the hills. We currently use our 5yo via a trailer bike, but she certainly doesn't contribute 200w

This brings me to Gazelle Easy Glider.
Anyone have one and willing to share experiences
It would appear to tick most of our requirement boxes. I subscribed to A to B online so have read the review in the Sept edition.
The main stumbling block is that we are in Ireland and its appears that Ireland is poorly served by electrical bike suppliers.

The use for such a bike is trips to town and friends. This being about max of 6 miles one way. Perhaps thinking of 10 miles one way to a particular favourite shop of ours.

One potential trip involves a steep uphill of a mile and a half averaging 1 in 10 but gets as steep 1 in 6 for a short stretch. I JUST manage it unassisted. The other half is poor on hills and she finds a slight incline or a head wind very hard. Speed is not an issue, just the ability to do it.

How noisy the motor is an issue and it didn’t appear to be mentioned in the A to B review.

Looks like the only battery option is Li-ion

Looks of the bike is reasonably important.

The bike needs to be fully kitted out. Dutch bikes always fullfill this requirement.

The right bike is more important than the price but if another right bike was less, then that would be good.

Are there other options to consider?

Angus

 

[flecc]

I don't own one, but have 4.5 years experience with the Lafree Twist with virtually the same Panasonic motor unit. These are quite low powered, but the drive through the gears extends the capabilities.

They will manage just about any climb, but slowly, between 4 and 6 mph on the steepest climbs typically, and I used mine for heavy towing for most of the time.

These units are fairly quiet, the software adding power on each pedal stroke, so bionic in action, and this produces a gentle whoosh sound from the motor unit with each downthrust, rather than a continuous motor note. It's not disturbing though.

The combined motor and control unit has no serviceable parts, so the lack of dealers will effectively make little difference, only the cycle parts needing any maintenance.

I'm in a very hilly area and you can see my Twist with trailer and loads on this webpage. Your daughter is unlikely to match the weight of some of these loads!
.

 

[Angus]

Well the daugher is good at keeping her own weight going, its the captain up front that needs the help! And if my daughter gets as heavy as some of those loads, there'll be something seriously wrong with her diet!

As I say, speed is not an issue, so 4 to 6mph is just fine.

So no serviceable parts and reading threads about the Lafree, the odd one does go kapput.
If that happened on the Lafree, could it be removed and a 3rd party hub motor be added on the front?

I'm also budgeting in a 3 year life for battery based on proposed usage of 3 times a week. I've browsed thruough some of the Li-ion threads.

The quietness issue, well ones man's quiet could be another man's noise. Very hard over the internet and spoken word to quantity, especially as I've never seen or heard an electric bike.

 

[JohnInStockie]

Hi Angus

As a Twist owner myself I can confirm that the power unit is very quiet, you certainly cannot hear it in traffic, or in the rain, or when riding over any form of gravel, but when riding up a quiet lane on a quiet morning you can indeed hear a 'mmmmmm' noise, sort of like a very very quiet milk float.

As Flecc said, these 'drive through gear' models will go up more or less anything, but 'slowly', which many can find annoying after a while (especially if reading of others on this forum going much faster). I personally have not found a hill that the first gear on my Twist cannot get up right down at 4mph.

As you may have read on this forum, some are experiencing long term issues it seems with this technology, based on no servicable parts - so cant be fixed, and on the fact that both the rider and the motor power is going through the gears - causing wear. But I believe that Gazelle give a 2 year warranty which should ofset quality fears, and if they are built as well as the Twists were (and they were built specifically well enough for dealers in the US not to have to worry about distance selling) then I wouldnt be concerned. In truth, its not that they cant be fixed, its just relatively more expensive to do. As you spotted, some have put a hub motor in the front wheel, whilst it is also possible to purchase a complete replacement motor unit too, but not cheaply!.

Consequently, most these days are opting for hub motors, when considering spending over £1000, but there is a definate split between those for and against the 'driver through gears' concept for various reasons' (-eh Flecc ).

Hope this helps.

John

 

[Angus]

Thanks John,
Fortunately, I'm old enough to remember a milk float and what they sound like.
So between what Flecc and yourself said, I don't think the noise will be a big issue, though herself is very sensitive to any slight background noise.

I wasn't aware of the 2 year warranty. I'll have to see what that actually covers. Since my last message, I have read more here and found the technical section. I have read the "Drive through gears on E-bikes" which was extremely informative.

Another factor pushing me towards the Easy Glider, is the desire to have hub gears and not having hub motor in front. I can't help but think a front hub motor is liable to slippage up steep wet hill with a load in tow.

 

[flecc]

Although I'm a hub motor fan these days, your application for towing, heavy riders and steep hills still indicate a drive through gear bike being best.

A hub motor can be fitted in the Lafree Twist forks, some doing it with Heinzmann motors and at least one dual powered (illegally).

NiMh are normally best for long life, but Li-ion are suited to low power motors like that on the Gazelle, so could last long enough. The problem will be one of range though. Initially you will probably be ok for the 10 miles each way journey on one charge, but the capacity loss is typically as much as 33% a year of each year's starting capacity. Sooner or later you'd need to charge at both ends or use two batteries.

Most of these units are reliable, and I've no doubt that Panasonic have learnt from the experience on the earlier unit that's on the Twist, so this later unit is probably going to be more reliable anyway. The worst case is a new unit, about £450 for the old type, but with two years warranty and the likelyhood of considerable improvement in the already quite good reliability, there should be no problem.

My stern warnings on the reliability and repair cost issue on the Lafree Twist were a warning to potential second hand buyers not to pay the inflated prices that were so prevalent for a while, and appear to have had the desired effect, prices now sharply down and more realistic.

P.S.

I can't help but think a front hub motor is liable to slippage up steep wet hill with a load in tow.

Yes, they can Angus, quite severely with a powerful motor.
.

 

[derrick7]

I've found the successor to my Twist

The Gazelle Orange Innergy ticks all the boxes!
A drive through gears bike, with a more powerful motor than the Easy Glider, 250w against 180w. The only thing I need reassurance with is it's hill climbing abilities, but being very similar to my Lafree Twist I daresay they will be the same.
How would the quoted 250w motor compare with the motor on my 2004 Twist?
It's good to see a maker that has improved a previous model & made it cheaper, a £100 less than the Easy Glider with a slightly better spec, unlike Giant.

Derrick - Llanberis

 

[flecc]

Sorry to disappoint you Derrick, but it's a front hub-motor bike, so is rather expensive for what it is.

In case you've any doubt about this, here's a translated bit from the German site:

"The drive guarantees a working quietly, brushless 36V/250W-Gleichstrommotor, at the hub of the front wheel is attached."
.

 

[derrick7]

I've found the successor to my Twist - 2

Damn!!!

Derrick - Llanberis

 

[jac]

have a look at this bike might be a successor cost of delivery probably under £100 put this number in ebay 120172347913 and do search interested in any comments

 

[flecc]

I think the Twist successor is the Gazelle Easy Glider, based on the fact that it's on our market and that means some support. The others using the Panasonic unit like the Bike-Tech models don't have the support here, apart from one small London dealer.

The reduction of power in the latest Panasonic unit is deliberate I'm sure, since the previous one gave the hub gears a rough time, causing some to fail and leading to the complete withdrawal of the Nexus 4 speed hub. It's these bike parts on drive through gear systems which make the power limited, rather than any other consideration. If the e-bike market was very much larger, it would be worth having a larger and stronger hub gear designed expressly for them, but that's not justifiable at present.
.

 

[jac]

hi sram sachs used to make a hub gear for tandems and work bikes which had stonger components but not sure if they still do it posibly for german postal service

 

[flecc]

Yes, you mean the Cargo version of the P5 hub Jim.

It's not all it's cracked up to be though. It's just the standard P5 with a slightly different low gear. Since low gear takes the greatest strain with heavy loads, they've made that stronger with different diameter cogs, but in the process reduced the gear range, from 250% to 225%, leaving the low gear not as low as before.

An e-bike with the motor driving through the hub gears ideally needs all the gears to be stronger, not just low gear, and they need to be very much stronger than anything ever made so far if they are to take the rider's power plus the 500 watts upwards of gross motor power that people really want these days.

The older Panasonic unit had a gross output of 390 watts, rarely reached as it was limited by software control, and the new one has been reduced and is probably under 350 watts now. That will help the gears, and allows for up to 250 watts continuous from a rider to be within hub gear design capabilities, but only handling two thirds of the total power many would like.
.

 

[Leonardo]

I think I've missed some posts… Can you tell me please Flecc something about the power reduction of the new Panasonic units?
Comparing my old Lafree Twist with my wife’s Biketech Flyer T8 using the so-called new “Premium” unit (different from the one used by the Gazelle, as far as I know), I feel that the latter gives a stronger support on very steep hills while the assistance on a medium gradient is maybe lower, even though it can be just a feeling due to the different behaviour of the “Premium”, which encourages speed (and so effort) more than the old 240/390 of my Giant. Does it make sense?

By the way. An Italian supplier told me that next year he’s going to import the Kalkhoff pedelecs, which should be exactly the same as the Raleigh, only with a different brand.

 

[flecc]

Yes, that's the answer Leonardo. The Premium unit appears to be the same new one but with a higher power rating. I don't know if it has a different motor or more liberal software control, I suspect the latter, hence speed rather than more hill climb ability.

Most bikes are like the Easy Glider though, a bit less powerful than the old unit. I've found no official figures on these and have drawn together everything I've found on the bikes with them and drawn some conclusions based on the reported performances and bike weights. To me that indicates reduction to around 340 watts peak at most, and that roughly fits with a published indicated legal figure of 180 watts, the old motor being variously shown as 200 or 250 watts legal figure, depending on the market, with gross power of 390 watts.

In the USA the old one was shown as 250/390 watts, leading to much confusion.

P.S. A point of interest related to our joint motor sprocket investigations. It's just as well the power is lower, given those very small motor sprockets, 8, 9 or 11 tooth on the new unit. The wear rate on the old unit's 14 tooth sprocket is already high, so on the 9 tooth that a 26" wheel bike will use with the new unit, it could have been a real problem with the old higher power, and I'm far from happy with such a small sprocket transmitting any motor power.
.

 

[Leonardo]

Many thanks Flecc.

The Biketech units are indicated 240W ("Plus" - the old one) and 250W ("Premium" , the new one). I never managed to know their peak power.

The supplier I spoke of told me that those Kalkhoff should use the "Premium" unit, but I don't know if it is true.

 

[flecc]

It's a pity that Panasonic are so reluctant to inform us better, but I suppose they prefer to leave those rights to the manufacturing users of the units. Sadly they don't tell us either.

As a confirmed hub motor user now, I only care that the Panasonic units are much too slow up most hills for me now. At my age I can't afford to spend so much time on hill climbs.
.

 

[jac]

just read in a to b magazine that there is a good chance someone is going to import panasonic drive raleigh bikes into uk and possibly sell for £1200 this seems to be to be a quite competitive price

 

[flecc]

It is a good price. I wonder if Raleigh UK as the "boss" company will block the move with the German Raleigh bikes though, since they are now teamed with Powabyke to market a hub motor range here.
.

 

[jac]

i suppose it is possible there could be a legal wrangle