The T bike, Torq Radical project

When I mentioned this project straight after the Q bike was released, there was a guessing game in the forum as to what I would do to the Torq. One guess of a smaller motor wheel was a possibility at that time, but later ruled out.

I hadn't intended to immediately complete this, but such was the interest that I decided to go ahead anyway. At the time of the first interest I said that what I intended couldn't be guessed as it was radical, and that's prove to be the case. And from that the T bike project took it's name, The Torq Radical. You may consider it extreme, but it won't blow anyone up, promise!

Here's the link.

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Good for you Flecc! Again, I'm impressed by your skills, foresight and single-mindedness. A lifetime in the cycle industry will have helped too.

You are more than welcome to have a go at improving my Sprint if you run out of projects! heh heh

Excellent stuff there Flecc, I can hear many voices calling for you to establish a modifications workshop . When you are taking bookings??

Would be great to see this beast in action at the rally next month?

 

Would be great to see this beast in action at the rally next month?

I did originally think of taking the Q bike, but once again it's a location without hills, so there's little point in taking either. It's when they get into the tough stuff that they show their worth.

Much of the Radical wouldn't be of value to someone in a flat area, other than the comfort issue of the front motor and low rolling resistance. Again it's on the hills, both up and down, that the real value shines through and it beats the opposition.

That's what I meant when I remarked it would be nice to have an event inside the M25 circle, but all we got was two in the flat centre of London!

Of course that neatly illustrates why I have to make these changes, standard products not being sufficiently up to climbing!

P.S. The usual offer applies though, anyone getting near to my area is welcome to ride them in conditions that they're designed for.

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Edited June 13, 200718 yr by flecc

Hi Flecc

If there was an internet award for the most gentlemanly forum technical advisor, I would like to see you up there with the contenders.

Brilliant, & you do it all in your kitchen!

All the best, David.

Thanks very much for your kind comments, Pete, Russ and David.

The kitchen had to suffer the machining and fibeglass layup this time David, and the bedroom is still full of surplus bits awaiting a clearance. These seem to have a low priority when there's fun to be had riding.

It's forecast wet tomorrow so it can be tackled then.

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Well, I've only scrolled down one time on the first page for the first shock to appear! I just had to post something now: lateral thinking at its very best you might say! Thats impressive already! do I dare read on? can't wait to read the rest, will post back later with my full impressions, if I'm not rendered speechless .

Stuart.

P.S. I must say, it looks very sleek/slick (?both!) with rear motor with very clean lines at the front looks even more classic .

Edited June 13, 200718 yr by coops

Nigel

Well done

fleccster i wish i had 1% of your talent your the man:D i really hope EZEE will take note of the changes you have made to both bikes and learn from them:) NIGEL

Ingenious flecc, really! And I'd like to echo everyone's comments: it really is not just what you do but the way you do it too! A rare & highly valued combination of cleverness of design solutions, skill of execution, completeness of documentation & publication, and all arising from such a seemingly modest lifestyle & workshop . I need hardly say more .

I was especially impressed at, after all that, your thoroughness at listing the main performance sources: a nice touch & very clear too!

The T bike, Torq Radical: the name fits

Stuart.

Edited June 13, 200718 yr by coops

Many thanks Hawkwind, Nigel and Stuart for your generous comments. I not only get the benefits of the finished projects, but the reward of this forum as well, riches indeed.

I thought you'd appreciate the clear listing of the performance sources Stuart, since I conceived that with you in mind, that being your special interest.

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...for your generous comments.

You're very welcome, as ever, and I'm sure I speak for more than myself .

I thought you'd appreciate the clear listing of the performance sources Stuart' date=' since I conceived that with you in mind, that being your special interest.[/quote']

 

I thought as much! extremely helpful and clear, as I said: much appreciated flecc, thanks (also saved yourself much time & effort explaining ).

 

Stuart.

Edited June 13, 200718 yr by coops

It wasn't really about saving time and effort Stuart, so much as it being better as an all-in-one grouping than in scattered bits in responses to different inquirers where it can be difficult for site visitors to put it all into context.

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flecc well done and

i need your help i have an old washing machine,iron bedstead,one 26in wheel one 18in wheel, 2 x12volt 85amp leisure batteries, a fixed wheel cog,and some gaffer tape can you please send plans on how to build an ebike.

not desperate today but i need to use it monday

mike

Deeply impressive, Flecc, just brilliant!

Thank you.

Django

Very impressive Flecc, well done! Youve amazed and astounded and pushed the boundaries again. Thinking back to some of the bikes that promised much but never materialised in 2007, is this a case of '..out of the Torq, the Radical rises...'

John

Many thanks Mike, Django, Ian and John.

Mike, not until Monday? I think you're already half way there, it's just getting the darned sticky tape in the right place. Some of the US sites would be right up your street for their ingenuity with using the most unpromising materials.

Yes, Ian, I was extremely confident that no-one would guess the wheel swap, it seemed so unintuitive and outrageous, and the battery was a bit cheeky too. You'd love the T bike, it has a race machine feel the moment it's sat on, and as soon as it starts to roll there's not a shadow of doubt about it's purpose.

John, it's certainly a pity that there isn't more genuine variety in what's available instead of many firms offering the same thing over and over again. Yes, out of the Torq the Radical rises, but I just hope MI5 don't get the wrong idea about this seat of radicalism and raid Pedelecs!

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Flecc I see all that just now.

I'm amazed.

(That battery modification: I wonder why it is not the standard... It is so simple and clever!)

That battery modification: I wonder why it is not the standard...

Thanks Leonardo. The problem for manufacturers with doing that battery mod is that it can take them over the legal power limit. It would be possible to have the controller limiting the voltage to a fixed figure, but that would make it more bulky and very wasteful of power.

It's the inflexibility of the law that's the problem here. If it allowed either a speed limit via the controller, or a power limit, the designers would have a free hand to do their job of design while still achieving what the legislators intended.

Unfortunately our politicians and civil servants always seem convinced of their own rightness in all matters and thus make our lives needlessly difficult.

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I meant to ask this when you did the Q bike flecc: how difficult is it to bend & reshape the frame i.e. the rear stays for these projects? How much care is needed? I read somewhere that aluminium frames should not be "spaced" i.e. stretched/bent as they are weaker than alloy frames for that: is that not true, or must it be done judiciously and by an experienced metalworker?

I still have an aluminium framed MTB which I may try a "project" build on but this aspect has so far been an obstacle to progress because all good powered hub motors won't fit standard dropout sizes.

Also, would it be easier or harder to mount a front hub motor in suspension forks? Can over-wide front suspension forks be had for the purpose? Or better to just rear-mount for comfort, traction etc. and accept some possible gearing compromise (currently I have a 7-speed freehub with 3 front chainwheels...).

Of course, since the bike is quite old, it may be better to just find a newer bike with "potential" for conversion, but in the spirit of recycling what I've got & as "practice"... also its quite light really...

Stuart.

I meant to ask this when you did the Q bike flecc: how difficult is it to bend & reshape the frame i.e. the rear stays for these projects? How much care is needed? I read somewhere that aluminium frames should not be "spaced" i.e. stretched/bent as they are weaker than alloy (flecc-note:think you mean steel here) frames for that: is that not true, or must it be done judiciously and by an experienced metalworker?

It's not true that alloy frames can't be bent Stuart, but alloy tubing can fail very suddenly, instead of giving way gradually as with steel. It's a matter of "feel" and experience, and I doubt it's possible to teach or learn quickly. Working with various materials over years gradually gives the experience necessary. The best guidance is first to try the expansion by hand and "read" from the feedback feel of the strain on the metal. Here's an example of me demonstrating a tube change method without wheel removal on an alloy frame Twist, the "fightback" of the frame telling me how far I can go:

http://users.tinyworld.co.uk/flecc/images/footmethodtubechange.jpg

Also, would it be easier or harder to mount a front hub motor in suspension forks? Can over-wide front suspension forks be had for the purpose? Or better to just rear-mount for comfort, traction etc. and accept some possible gearing compromise (currently I have a 7-speed freehub with 3 front chainwheels...).

 

Stuart.

A rear mount motor is easier if you can have one complete with freewheel thread. Although multi sprocket freewheels are undoubtedly weaker than cassettes, too much can be made of this for electric bikes. The fact that the bike is assisted means that the derailleur will be doing much less work than if it was on an unassisted bike, and that's why I'm quite happy to use freeewheels on my two project bikes.

There need be no gearing compromise. Whatever you do don't keep that excessive number of gears on an electric. Yes, you do need a reasonably good gear range, but an e-bike absolutely does not need a large number of gears due to the gear-gap bridging power of the motor. Some like Powabyke offer 24 speed setups, but that's just to give a good range with a cassette system, that number of gears being quite ridiculous. I view that as poor design.

An illustration is my Torq that was. Even in my very hilly area I only ever used about four of the eight gears, constantly skating backwards and forwards across the intermediate ones, barely pedalling on them. It's a relief to have the 5 + 1 megarange system now on both Q and T bikes. Even in that system only the top three gears are used most of the time, four at most usually. The megarange first gear large sprocket is only a "get home up a hill with flat battery" gear usually, just occasionally used on a really tough hill like a 1 in 5. Likewise the second gear mainly for a difficult hill like 1 in 6 typically. With a motor assisting, the upper three are enough for nearly all our roads.

There isn't a big choice of multi freewheels, and they are only from Shimano. These are the current range:

Cadet: seven speed, 14 to 24 teeth, 179%

Cadet: five speed, 14 to 24 teeth, 179% range

Cadet: six speed, 13 to 34 teeth, 262% Megarange

HG.50: seven speed, 11 to 34 teeth, 309% Megarange

Dismiss the first as you need a bigger range and an e-bike doesn't need such close spaced gears.

The second also has too small a range.

The third is the second one but with it's 14 tooth sprocket changed to a 13 and a large 34 tooth on the back. This is my favourite for e-bikes.

These three are all a budget series as the Cadet name implies. The fourth one uses the sprockets of the third, plus an 11 tooth on the front. Because that's so far out from the inside bearings of the freewheel, it has to have a stronger bearing centre section, so the usual price is £19.99 instead of £9.99 for each of the others. Again I'd question if seven gears are really needed.

The official reason for having many sprocket gears is that the narrower the gap between the number of teeth on adjacent sprockets, the slicker the change, and that's true for Campagnolo and SRAM derailleurs.

But it's not true for Shimano, who use methods that enable smooth wider gap changes. There are three methods.

The first is that Shimano sprockets are shallow, the teeth cut off short so it's much easier for the chain to move off sideways. This also has the disadvantage of higher wear, but Shimano don't mind you having to buy replacements!

The second method is tooth staggering, intermittent teeth bent sideways out of line. This creates more gear noise, but it does give intermittent better chances for the chain to leave or enter as the teeth pass.

The third method is by indenting the sprocket sides with ramp indentations. These engage with the link rivet ends and help carry the chain upwards as the sprocket slips past the chain after it leaves the preceding sprocket, and this in particular is how a chain can change slickly, even direct from a 24 tooth to a 34 tooth sprocket.

The rest of the secret is just keeping it correctly adjusted.

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Edited June 14, 200718 yr by flecc

Thanks for the information flecc

I probably meant more correctly to say gearing reduction (as in number, not range necessarily) not compromise :o sorry 'bout that: very good point the advantage of fewer gears, but good range, as you say, with the motor assist - thanks.

Excuse my ignorance, but when you said its not true "alloy" frames can't be bent, you do mean "aluminium alloy", right? There is a difference between aluminium alloy and other alloys, isn't there? Its just I naively thought "alloy" usually refers to non-aluminium based, like steel-alloy or somesuch: my MTB is marked as "7005 series heat treated aluminium" which, I believe, is an aluminium alloy of some kind? If it can be bent carefully a small amount, then I may try that, with care of course if necessary... I'll take full responsibility, don't worry

Stuart.