The power to make cycling make sense

[flecc]

Wholeheartedly agree with your sentimernts about "cheating". I've long maintained that if using electricity post manufacture is cheating, then using huge quantities of electricity to produce the exotic materials used in the top sports bikes makes club riders just as much cheats. In other words, this concept of cheating is a nonsense, and all such usage is as you say, about making cycling more efficient.

400 watts would certainly be desirable, but the existing European law and the fact it's mandatory on us, despite our currently ignoring it, makes it unlikely we could make any UK change in opposition to that. I understand Germany is adopting the Swiss style "super e-bike" class, permitting 20 mph on bikes subject to having insurance, and this might be a more productive approach towards getting what we want.

 

[JohnInStockie]

Ignorance is bliss

I have exactly the same issue, when I try to explain to my work colleagues just why I am going to change from my car to an e-bike, they look at me as if I am mad. I can actually see my credability diminishing in their eyes, amazing.

In our society, it seems that everyones goal should be to 'drive a nice car'. With Top Gear, Fifth Gear, looks into James Bonds cars, I wonder if when thinking about this anyone actually is considering the environment at all. Surely it should be the governments aim to stop people thinking this way, and to encourage 'greener' technologies, and especially in the commuting arena.

It is so inbuilt into our culture now to aspire to having a car, now my 16 year old daughter is looking forward to her first car next year, as is her boyfriend.

When will govenrments realise that electric bikes for commuting is a practical solution?

(Rant over)


John

 

[redalpha3]

I have lived in the same terrace for more than 40 years. When I moved here there were two cars in a street of 17 houses. Now one household in particular has 4 people and 4 cars! Most households have two! We are a small island. I don't even think of the 'carbon emissions' threat. I'm simply worried about running out of space!!

 

[MazB]

I wouldn't call it cheating

I love my electric bike and I would never say it was cheating.
People ride Mopeds and Motorbikes and of cors Cars. The electric bike just lets me choose if I want some assistance or to go all out on my own. I have only been using my electric bike since June this year, I have noticed that I have been able to cycle up some hills without any assistance which I would never have dreamnt of before. So yes my electric bike is helping me get fitter, unlike the above mentioned forms of transport.

I have also noticed this year that I have not had any flu or illness, maybe this is because I have not had to endure the horrible bus journey, with all them people coughing and sneezing, that I used to take prior to my lovely electric bike

As for people laughing at the thought of an electric bike, I find this nonsense. My bike is the talk of the office, most people in the office have been down to the garage and had a "wazzz" round on it even the cleaners and caretaker have had a go, and they all love it.

Its a shame the garage is mostly cars.

Great site by the way and its my first post

Marian.

 

[rsscott]

Hi Marian,

welcome aboard and glad you are enjoying your electric bike! I've found people to be very curious of my electric bike and like you, some have had a whizz up the road and have been very impressed with the performance. Unfortunately, none of them have taken the plunge themselves bar one (who purchased my previous electric bike).

cheers
Russ

 

[rsscott]

Hi Scott,

I'm disappointed that David Cameron hasn't taken up your offer, but then I suspect he probably isn't aware of it personally!

I don't think electric bikes will really hit the mainstream until the general population is really feeling the pain from high energy prices. It will take a big jump at the pump before this will happen but I don't think we are too many years away from that happening.


cheers
Russ.

 

[rsscott]

I believe there are a number of things converging that will require us to completely change our way of life, including but not limited to, climate change, fossil fuel depletion etc..

While electric bikes don't completely solve the problem of needing an energy source to charge the batteries, they are far far more economical mile for mile than a car. At some point people will need to re-evaluate their love-affair with the car and while many will baulk at riding a bicycle again, the electric bike provides the perfect middle ground while we sort all the other issues out.

People are inherently resistant to change. All we can do is carry on riding our electric bikes, by doing this we are planting the seed that there is another way. They'll come around eventually!

 

[flecc]

Youngsters on Electric Bikes

I've given a lot of thought lately to the subject of youngsters riding electric bikes, this arising from situations showing how ridiculous the 14 years old lower age limit is. For example, riding to the local tip in a nearby council estate, towing my trailer, a group of the local kids on bikes decided a race would be fun so set out in pursuit. The most I could manage on the Lafree with the load behind was 15 mph, but the leading lad who was the smallest at about 8, and riding a tiny bike with about 12" wheels gradually managed to creep past me by sheer will power with legs spinning like a blur. If a lad of that age can ride at over 15 mph on public roads, why the restriction on 15 mph limited electric bikes? Certainly those of 10 and older in my hilly area fly down hills very much faster and often belt down the main estate road to the shops at well over that.

My reason for harping on this is twofold. First there's the very real problem of doting parents buying youngsters dangerous and highly illegal mini-motos of various kinds, driving many mad with the noise they create. If they had the option of a legal powered alternative, I'm sure many would take it, and with bikes like the Currie IZIP available now, it's a viable option.

Second, there's the value of educating them into thinking electric bike as a means of powered transport, getting them while they're young, so to speak. I've seen it said that youngsters would not think electric bikes cool, but I know from experience that this is rubbish. Many of the kids on my estate have ridden my Twist and Quando, as have teenagers around the more distant supermarket who've expressed interest, and they invariable return with a grin and a comment of "wicked!" or "cool". On one occasion after he'd had two rides, I had to physically drag a local lad off the Twist with him vigorously protesting "Oh but this bike is really, really cool", those his exact words.

Once again we'd be up against Europe in getting the lower age limit lowered substantially, but I'm sure the mini-moto problem is widespread in Europe as well so it could be a quid pro quo to get the idea of low age limits for electric bikes accepted. It would also fit well with the government objective of getting kids riding to school instead of being carried in cars, a powered ride being a very attractive option for most kids.

 

[urstuart16v@talktalk.net]

youngsters and elec bikes

hi -sorry if i sound controversial but i really do not think a large number of teenagers will be riding electric bikes ,not when you can buy a new pushbike starting about fifty pounds, the cost of a bottom of the range electric bike plus the thought of buying new batteries every 12 months would put many parents off.Plus the plain fact of the matter is what the majority of young teenagers want is a motor bike which is cool ,electric bikes in the main are not,as is shown by the popularity of mini moto bikes which ihave seen some really nice ones starting in price from125 pounds.On a more serious note the thought of hordes of teenagers riding round on deregulated electric bikes is a thing nightmares are made of,and it would happen how many people on this site openly advocate deregulating bikes ,it only takes one youngster to find out how to do it, and the knowledge would spread like wildfire, so what i hear you say ,well look what the government has done about mini motos ,a 2000 pound fine if not used on private land is now applicable, how long before a youngster would get hurt travelling on an elec bike at deregulated speed,we would then all pay the price when the gov steps in as per mini motos.

 

[flecc]

I've considered those points, but parents are spending quite large sums on some of the illegal stuff already. I agree that some are very cheap, but I also know that they are most definitely not really nice ones, having seen the short life failures on many of them and attempted to repair some. Most electric bikes cannot be deregulated to make them go faster, since their motor limit is part of the design to a maximum of about 15 mph. The only ones I know of that can be are around the £1000 plus range, which as you point out will not be bought for them anyway.

Even if they were able to deregulate to reach 20 mph as on the Torq, so what, they reach those speeds routinely on their normal bikes downhill, and sometimes on the level as well. At least three manufacturers make junior club style race bikes with 20" wheels which are aimed at the 10 to 13 market and these can easily be ridden at 20 mph plus.

As I've explained with examples, every kid who's tried the bikes has without exception regarded them as cool, and those who've ridden mine have ages ranging from 12 to 17 years. These kids are typical, this is a London borough, so I don't understand on what basis you're denying that fact.

As for the prospect being a nightmare, it must be that now since the kids are already doing everything an electric bike can do, except switch on and off and twist a throttle. One local 13 year old who normally rides his own bike at a maniacal pace delights in riding the Quando, despite the leisurely 14/15 mph speed, so by most standards is actually safer going electric.

The 12 months for batteries that you quoted is also unlikely. My two Twist NiMh batteries are still in regular use at nearly four years old, and the cheaper electrics would only be using these or sealed lead acids which have a similar life. That sort of battery life would see most kids through their biking span.

Sorry, but you'll have to come up with something much more tangible to convince me that the present law is anything other than nanny state stuff, regulating that which clearly has no need to be regulated. The law itself says it all, electric bikes are regarded not as motor vehicles but as bicycles, so since kids can ride bicycles, they can in logic ride electric bikes.

 

[Jed]

Personally I don't see the government relaxing the rules on electric bikes at all, infact I see them potentially going the other way. Right now, I can enjoy travelling faster thann the 25kph allowed by desrestricting my bike. Someone at some point will get done for riding illegally and once the government gets wind of electric bikes that can be destricted they'll then tighten the law so that bikes can't be sold with the ability to do it.

thanks
Jed

 

[urstuart16v@talktalk.net]

hi-one point no one has taken into consideration is like it or not riding a bike on the public highway ,is these days very dangerous in places ,indeed where i live on the Wirral Merseyside ,their are two schools for teenagers and only a small minority use bikes to get to school compared to when i was young.Now riding a bike on a busy road at twenty miles an hr plus is a recipe for an accident,itried it downhill with my torque and yes it was exzilerating but we have the same problem as with motorbikes-cars which appear not to see you,indeed i have never had a problem with road rage while driving a car but i sure did when i first road my electric bike, unfortunately there are a large number of dangerous and inconsiderate car drivers out there. As to not being able to deregulate all bikes you only have to look at the chipping of video games consoles-complicated but a large number of people do it ,indeed there are web sites instructing you how to so with something as relatively simple as a elec bike no problem.As to batterys the battery on my sprint after 12 months has lost punch and capacity-it has done 1700 miles though.

 

[flecc]

Absolutely agreed on most of that Stuart, but the fact remains that everything you've said applies to any bike. The point I'm making is that the lower age limit on electric bike riding is a law without a function. It doesn't prevent kids doing anything they don't do legally already, so the law has no purpose and should not stand.

All law restricts freedom, and it's universally accepted that this is permissible where necessary for the greater good. But here, since this law has no perceivable function, there is no greater good and that law only exists to restrict a freedom already enjoyed in a similar form, and therefore is invalid.

You haven't said what battery type you have Stuart, but Li-ions do have a shorter life, irrelevant here since as you've observed already, the kids wouldn't be riding the expensive bikes which have those. I made the point that NiMh and lead acid have longer lives, to which I'd add the fact that kids are low mileage cyclists by nature and would remain so. Their social areas tend to be very localised, friends, shops, school etc often within a one mile radius, rarely more than two. I doubt if any would do anything like the 6000 plus miles I've done on the Twist on it's two batteries over four years.

However, none of these things are relevant to my argument. Things like battery life, cost of bike, whether someone thinks they're cool or not are simply nothing whatsoever to do with the law, nor is the personal choice of whether one likes riding with traffic or not.

This law exists without any purpose. It never has had one, and there's no perceivable situation in which it would have one. It's a law seemingly based on a prejudice, and supported by prejudices which have nothing whatsoever to do with the law, past or present. It should go.

 

[urstuart16v@talktalk.net]

hi Flex i think we must agree to disagree,you surely do not mean you would remove the age limit from electric bikes completely, the greater good you speak of must be the protection of our children from themselves.Most young people who live in built up areas ride on the pavement for safety reasons another minus point, like it or not an electric bike is a motorised vehicle similar to a motor bike just the method of propulsion is different ,and they are also have age restrictions placed on them ,indeed when i was a teenager i was allowed to drive any size of motor bike and on l plates ,in hindsight not a good thing.Knowing this country i feel quite lucky to be able to ride an electric bike with the minimum of restrictions ,and while we are in a minority we can all play at deregulating bikes and get away with it,as soon as the roads are flooded with electric bikes causing a nuisance or some one gets hurt ,and the papers take notice i fear we will suffer retribution from the government ,as per mini moto and the fierce dogs act.Indeed i find it quite pleasurable being in the minority it has appeal,in the last twelve i have seen 1 thompson and 2 powerbike shoppers on my travels.

 

[flecc]

I realise that you're not going to change your generally safety angled point of view Stuart, but as said, it's not what I'm arguing. It's this simple logic:

Here is a law that bans those under 14 from riding something classed as a bicycle, when the law says that they can ride something classed as a bicycle.

Your contention that electric bikes are motor vehicles is wrong in law, both here and in Europe, they are just bicycles. If the legislators wish to class them differently, they have the option to argue that case, but they have not done so, so the age limit as a nonsense.

Meanwhile, they are certainly not similar to motor cycles as you say, they are almost entirely normal bikes which have some provision to help with pedalling. By extension, what you say means that the few kids who ride fast lightweight thin tyred sports bikes should also be banned. After all, their bikes also make pedalling very much easier than that with the usual kids bikes, and they are capable of higher speed than any legal electric bikes.

The safety issues you raise remain irrelevant as I've already pointed out. Take riding on the pavement as one example. As you say, they already do that, and an electric bike would not allow them to do it any faster than they do at present. The fat tyred dual suspension all steel bikes they commonly ride weigh at least as much as any of my three electrics, so weight is not a factor. They have the same braking abilities. Therefore the ban has no function, there or for the other issues you raise in each answer. Ergo, what is the point of this law?

It's rare for such a prejudicial and pointless law to get onto the statute books, and to prevent these we have select committees and the house debating chamber where such proposed laws can be challenged. In this case though, those affected are without representation in our democratic system. The age limit has clearly been included by those like yourself who have childrens safety in mind, but it just as clearly hasn't been thought through, it's just been included as a knee jerk reaction. If it had been thought through, it would have been abundantly clear that it could have no effect or purpose.

P.S. I didn't answer the point you previously made about chipping to make bikes go faster. I think you've missed the point I was making Stuart. Most of these cheaper bikes don't have any electronic limitation, they only have enough power to reach 15 mph or a bit less on the flat. No amount of chipping can alter that, there's no more the motor can give. Bikes like some of the eZee models are the exception and reside in the upper price bracket which parents won't be entertaining.

 

[flecc]

Snap 50cycles! We simultaneously complained of knee jerk actions!

In support of what you've said, I recently saw an uttterly charming scene on television, filmed in Naples in a very busy city street. There were two watchful police officers at the side of the road who took no notice as a young mother rode past on her lambretta, with her young son of about six years old riding alongside her on his mini motor cycle. His motor cycle was quiet and civilised, he was wearing a tough motor cycle jacket, gloves, a proper open face motor cycle helmet and a huge smile. That's nothing but sheer common sense, so common on the part of the Italian authorities, the law applied only where necessary without penalising the sensible.

Look at what we have by contrast. An absolute ban on any similar action with draconian penalties like crushing people's possessions. This then giving rise to the resentment and defiance that prompts people to say, "To hell with them, I'll do it anyway". The outcome of that is dangerous open exhaust mini motos ridden unsupervised and recklessly to the annoyance of others driven mad by the noise, plus the injuries resulting from that riding. How clever of us.

 

[urstuart16v@talktalk.net]

hi interesting point of view from 50cycles but not unexpected as you have a vested interest in selling electric bikes, and really that must be at the heart ot the matter the lower the age limit the more bikes you sell ,but are you acting in a responsible manner? as to, say letting a 10 year old out on our roads with an electric bike i don't think many parents would agree with the safety issue, might be persuaded if we had a full cycle path network but even in towns it is sporadic the subject of chidren growing up faster yes i agree,but that is part of the problem they do not stay children long enough,we have football hooligans world renowned- worst problem in Europe of underage drinking and binge drinking-and what about under age pregnancies so yes kids in europe might be okay but they don't have the British disease of self destruction.Car numbers are still growing ,electric bikes ,will not even dent that,public transport is rubbish ,and i myself own two cars and now three electric bikes as well, although i do not use the car as much-try taking cars off the public and watch the government fall-look how America is running scared of the car lobbyists.

 

[flecc]

Oh Stuart! You keep dodging the issue!

What is the difference between a 10 year old (or anyone else) riding a normal bike or an electric bike? The answer, none, except one needs less effort. Both bicycles have the same capabilities and can go to the same places, whether dangerous or not.

Therefore there are no grounds for singling out the electric version for discrimination on safety or any other issue.

 

[rsscott]

The US is going to have a major problem on its hands over the coming decades. 25% of global oil production is used by them alone and as you say Stuart, the car is king. At some point though oil/gas production will peak and then we will begin the decline which will wreak havoc with our economies and our way of life. I hope it will be an orderly transition and electric bikes are a good way to soften the blow for people who are no longer able to afford running cars (let alone multiple car households).

Ultimately though, we will have to stop shipping apples half way around the globe and start to rely again on local production. The transport of goods will never again be like what we have today. People will have to go back to living and working locally. Bikes will be the best and most reliable form of transport!

 

[flecc]

I agree with that Russ, as I do with Stuart's comments on cars. As you say, we'll need to grow our produce locally, and for that reason I'm strongly opposed to the current lobby in favour of bio fuel. We're going to need that land for food, and can't afford to squander it on maintaining the car culture.