The Law

[Ianb11]

It would appear not, the guy in the video is renting out the same bikes as in the 1st post. If his bikes have been taken away for inspection and returned to him to continue his hire business, would it be fair to assume they are all "approved"?

Possibly, but Flecc, who clearly knows his stuff, suggested that even the authorities can be unclear on the law.

 

[wheeliepete]

even the authorities can be unclear on the law.

Deff. looks like that is the case in this instance.

 

[Nealh]

The law regarding illegal ebike use isn't very harsh for first time offenders.
The met at the tail of last Autumn and early winter confiscated about 100 pedicabs off the streets of London, the users were not prosecuted but were sent a warning letter laying down the law and consequences should they be caught again.

 

[flecc]

Possibly, but Flecc, who clearly knows his stuff, suggested that even the authorities can be unclear on the law.

How true this is becomes very clear when the DfT, who make the law, don't know it to the point of comedy.

When a police force tried to prosecute a pedelecer for having a 250 watt motor, the DfT backed them, until I pointed out an anomaly and the prosecution was stopped.

The problem was that their pedelec usage law (1983 EAPC) states that any bike having over 200 watts had to be type approved as a motor vehicle, that ruled by the DfT legal department,

However the DfT's Vehicle Inspectorate who do type approval work to a different construction law (168/2013), which exempts any otherwise legal pedelec having 250 watts or less from being type approved.

A bit like pantomime really, one DfT department saying "Oh yes you must!", while another department says "Oh no you can't!"

 

[Deleted member 25121]

The problem was that their pedelec usage law (1983 EAPC) states that any bike having over 200 watts had to be type approved as a motor vehicle, that ruled by the DfT legal department,

Hasn't that since been resolved since we adopted the EU regs?

 

[flecc]

Hasn't that since been resolved since we adopted the EU regs?

Yes, but not at the time of the attempted prosecution,

Now we have a new DfT mess with their bonkers ruling on type approval to permit a throttle. That is against both UK and EU law.
.

 

[Woosh]

Now we have a new DfT mess with their bonkers ruling on type approval to permit a throttle. That is against both UK and EU law.

they obviously don't want the police to prosecute pensioners with arthritic knees.

 

[flecc]

they obviously don't want the police to prosecute pensioners with arthritic knees.

True, but they could have achieved that within the law, rather than making a local rule that breaches the law and which hardly anyone can understand and never use. That's similar to how we got into the mess we were in for 12 years with most pedelecs illegally powered. It seems they never learn.
.

 

[peter.c]

Suspect this will cause a rethink https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/ebike-cyclist-death-by-dangerous-driving-a4372596.html

 

[LeighPing]

Suspect this will cause a rethink

The prosecution and defence agree that Hanlon did not have a licence or insurance for a motorbike, but he is contesting the first two charges because they require a fault in the driving, which contributed in a more than a minimal way to the death.

A tragic accident no matter what.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

Suspect this will cause a rethink https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/ebike-cyclist-death-by-dangerous-driving-a4372596.html

Let's hope is doesn't result in the pedelec concessions being removed but with the widespread flagrant breach of the law something needs to happen.

 

[Michael Price]

The problem with the law is how to enforce it - as well as what it actually is.

It would be fine clarifying exactly what an ebike is but how would that get enforced? The Police arn't (I hope!) going to start pulling over any bike they think may be an ebike (becasue some of the new ones are less obvious than previously so they would pick on some non-motorised bike and caused total indignation from some of the lyrca brigade) and then how to they test it at the roadside??
I suppose they would have to leave the rider at the side of the road and take the potential ebike to a test station in a van. If not then how do you test the cutoff speed is not hacked?
As far as I can see you have to have a label/plate on the bike saying its power etc - or something saying the make (and model?) of the motor - but this seems a bit dumb as anyone could have a label but have a different motor with more power - so we get back to testing in a proper facility

and at the end of all that - how do you know when your motor cuts out? My new Motus is so quiet that by 15.5 mph the wind noise is louder then the motor noise - and the cut out is so smooth I can't feel it. As a result the motor could be cutting out at a speed over 15.5 and I wouldn't know.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

The problem with the law is how to enforce it - as well as what it actually is.

It would be fine clarifying exactly what an ebike is but how would that get enforced? The Police arn't (I hope!) going to start pulling over any bike they think may be an ebike (becasue some of the new ones are less obvious than previously so they would pick on some non-motorised bike and caused total indignation from some of the lyrca brigade) and then how to they test it at the roadside??
I suppose they would have to leave the rider at the side of the road and take the potential ebike to a test station in a van. If not then how do you test the cutoff speed is not hacked?
As far as I can see you have to have a label/plate on the bike saying its power etc - or something saying the make (and model?) of the motor - but this seems a bit dumb as anyone could have a label but have a different motor with more power - so we get back to testing in a proper facility

and at the end of all that - how do you know when your motor cuts out? My new Motus is so quiet that by 15.5 mph the wind noise is louder then the motor noise - and the cut out is so smooth I can't feel it. As a result the motor could be cutting out at a speed over 15.5 and I wouldn't know.

Perhaps by requiring a yearly test of cut off speed and a license disc mounted on the bike funded by the charge to the owner for performing the tests.
With the upcoming big demand for escooters something like this is increasingly going to be necessary.

 

[flecc]

The problem with the law is how to enforce it - as well as what it actually is.

It would be fine clarifying exactly what an ebike is but how would that get enforced?

We'll probably end up doing what we so often do, making the occasional example of obvious cases, like this illegal e-bike one.

It happened to cyclist Charlie Alliston when he collided with and killed a woman who stepped out in front of him without looking. Only having one brake instead of two and failing to show remorse earned him a year and a half prison sentence. With two brakes and showing remorse he wouldn't have ended up in jail.

Making an example of him like that worked, all our many fixie riding couriers like him, some with only one brake, were caused to take note and act accordingly.
.

 

[Woosh]

and at the end of all that - how do you know when your motor cuts out? My new Motus is so quiet that by 15.5 mph the wind noise is louder then the motor noise - and the cut out is so smooth I can't feel it. As a result the motor could be cutting out at a speed over 15.5 and I wouldn't know.

if you were involved in an accident and your speedometer is found to be faulty, then you can sue your suppliers.
On the other hand, if you derestrict your bike then you will be on your own.

 

[Michael Price]

Perhaps by requiring a yearly test of cut off speed and a license disc mounted on the bike funded by the charge to the owner for performing the tests.
With the upcoming big demand for escooters something like this is increasingly going to be necessary.

That would be good for bike shops - additional income like an MOT - but you know what happens when that happens - the regualtions end up increasing.
And - introduce them for ebikes and you dis-incentivise ebike so people go to e-scooters and hoverboards - and whatever comes along next year - so you introdude regs for them as well - then for bikes - then you have to have a helmet
By which time everyone has given up and gone back into their cars
Chris Boardman did a good analysis on the effect of compulsory helmets - the same would apply to any yearly inspections
probably
YMMV

 

[BazP]

That would be good for bike shops - additional income like an MOT - but you know what happens when that happens - the regualtions end up increasing.
And - introduce them for ebikes and you dis-incentivise ebike so people go to e-scooters and hoverboards - and whatever comes along next year - so you introdude regs for them as well - then for bikes - then you have to have a helmet
By which time everyone has given up and gone back into their cars
Chris Boardman did a good analysis on the effect of compulsory helmets - the same would apply to any yearly inspections
probably
YMMV

I understand that some of the dongles can be removed in seconds and put back on just as quickly so a yearly test wouldn't work.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

I understand that some of the dongles can be removed in seconds and put back on just as quickly so a yearly test wouldn't work.

What would work?

 

[flecc]

What would work?

Making the occasional example of an obvious offender as I posted.

You only have to look at the Charlie Alliston case to know how making an example of someone results in widespread publicity having a dramatic effect. His one and a half year sentence put a whole new slant on a bicycle's legality. It was no longer the very minor matter it had been up until then.

Most of our law regulation works this way, even minor ones like littering or illegal parking. The occasional batch of £80 fines for dropping a cigarette butt or cars carted away to the pound with £150 plus the parking fine to pay to get the car back have a salutary effect, despite most never being detected.
.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

Making the occasional example of an obvious offender as I posted.

You only have to look at the Charlie Alliston case to know how making an example of someone results in widespread publicity having a dramatic effect. His one and a half year sentence put a whole new slant on a bicycle's legality. It was no longer the very minor matter it had been up until then.

Most of our law regulation works this way, even minor ones like littering or illegal parking. The occasional batch of £80 fines for dropping a cigarette butt or cars carted away to the pound with £150 plus the parking fine to pay to get the car back have a salutary effect, despite most never being detected.
.

But you can only make an example of them when you catch them which right now seems to be only when they kill somebody.

There must be a better way.