Test

[faphillips]

This is purely a test to see if I can insert a photo (my stolen Nano Brompton purely as an example) into a post. If you see a photo it works - if you don't it didn't and maybe someone can suggest how I include a photo in a post (from Flickr) not just showing a link.

Francis

 

[flecc]

Hello Francis.

If you place the flashing cursor where you want the photo to appear, then click the yellow mountain scene icon above the reply box, you get a paste in box. Paste in the URL for your image, ok it, then ok the reply and the photo will appear. In your link there was a box bracket at the front which shouldn't have been there, but you will have to use the complete link again to get it to work.
.

 

[faphillips]

Flecc

As always thanks very much for your help. As you will see, I have now managed to edit my original post to include the photo.

Feel free to remove these posts.

The reason, by the way that I wanted to know how to do this is I have been working on an alternate battery option for my new Nano Brompton i.e. a 36v Bosch 2.6Ah powertool battery (1.24kg) that mounts both on the luggage block directly and also in one of the back pockets on the Brompton bag, thus leaving the main part of the bag free for my laptop and papers. Its been a struggle commuting with the battery bag over one shoulder, my laptop bag/briefcase over the other and the Brompton in my hand.

Tony Castles has been using a 2Ah Bosch battery but only directly mounted on the luggage block and he isnt currently marketing the adapter so i have made my own.

Thanks again

Francis

 

[flecc]

I can only remove my one Francis, so I'll just remove the example photo for the moment.
.

 

[kraeuterbutter]

@faphillips:
have you a link to the 2.6Ah BOSCH..
do you know which cells are used ?

i have here two 36Bosch 2Ah
there are 20cells of 1100mAh Konion Sony US18650VT included..
(here the electrical behaviour of those cells: Elektromodellflug - LiIon-Mangan 1100 im Test, the first diagramm )

here a picture: http://www.kraeuterbutter.at/Bilder2/BOSCH_DEWALT_Akkus/Konion aus Bosch Akkupack.jpeg

i will build a 10s4p (36V, 4.4Ah nominal) for my bike
have payed around 60 euro for one pack as i remember (already lying around for 1 year)

would be very interested to know
1.) WHAT cells are included in this 2.6Ah pack
2.) how much have you paid ?

 

[kraeuterbutter]

ah..
have already the solution:

in your BOSCH 2.6Ah there are Samsung INR18650 used (so 20 of them as 10s2p)

here a diagramm of the Samsung-cells of your bosch-pack:
http://www.rc-network.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=119253&d=1198948134

so: 13A continouse is ok for a single cells..
when you keep them as 10s2p and using two of them, so 10s4p
you can safely get 1500Watt out of the pack (>50A) (without stressing it..
with other words: you will not stress the battery with your Nano Brompton

 

[faphillips]

kraeuterbutter

Sadly I know very little about electricity and batteries and have not opened the Bosch 36 v battery to see what goes on inside. My reason for choosing this battery is that the creator of the Nano Brompton uses a similar, albeit slightly lower capacity battery (2 Ah) with good results. He has been getting around 7 or 8 miles range so if I get 9 miles I will be really pleased.

I originally considered using the DeWalt 36v battery of which there is much written on the web, however a number of people suffered problems with the battery 'blowing' or certainly the internal fuse (10 Amp ?)doing so. This battery is also only rated at 33v I believe. Its a shame because I believe the cells are of really good quality.


I am however reassured by your view that this battery will cope well with the Nano Brompton setup. Your input is appreciated.

By the way I paid £64 for the battery plus postage (it was new) although generally they are more expensive. By the way the 2Ah and 2.6Ah weigh the same and have identical dimensions.

I have included a picture of Tony Castles use of the 2Ah battery on his Brompton

Francis

 

[kraeuterbutter]

well, thats a good reason to keep the original housing...
mouting seems to be made very easy and prof. looking
and you also can use the original charger as well...
an easy: plug-and-charge/drive setup... like it !

just for the batteries:
i have the Sony-Cells (so the 2Ah-packs Tony castle also uses)
except of the higher capacity of your cells in the 2.6Ah pack i think they would behavior very similar..

however: hands down: the A123 cells are superior cells..

however a number of people suffered problems with the battery 'blowing' or certainly the internal fuse (10 Amp ?)doing so.

thats maybe a problem of the housing..
i use my cells without the housing..

just some electrical values:
A123: 71g
--> 2,3Ah nominal (in reality more like 2,2Ah)
--> 50A continouse, 80A Bursts (10sec), 120A Peaks

(the value A123 systems says are even higher, but this are values i have measured and desided that these are best.. at higher values, the voltage goes down too much)

considering the voltage-drop i would say:
one single A123 is good for:
140Watt continouse
200Watt Burst
260Watt Peak

compared to the Sony or your Samsung cells (i have only the Sonycells, so for this):
two sony-cells paralleled: (41g each) --> 82g
--> 2,2Ah nominal (in reality more like 2Ah)
--> 26A continouse, 40A Burst (10sec), 50A Peaks

this are measured (no factsheet from producer)-datas, keeping the cells down to under healthy 60°C

so: for two SONY-cells (two cells paralleled for reason to compare with one A123-cell) this means (again: voltage-drop is included in calculation):
90Watt continouse
130Watt Bursts
160Watt Peaks

====================

conclusion: also the A123 is 10g lighter than two paralleld Sony-cells,
the cells are nevertheless ~60% more powerfull

other advantages for A123 (there are many):
* faster chargable (fastest chargetime so far: 4min 36sec. for ~95%)
* more cyclelifes (1000 says producer, over 1000 tested in rc-forum by user with currents and chargerates higher than you will see in an electric bike)
* shelflife is said to be 10 years (longer than any other commonly used Lithium-cells)
* very forgiving at overcharging or over-discharging
* getting older they loose capacity (first 400 full cylces about 7%) BUT the inner resistance stays the same !!
so: after some 100 cycles you drive maybe 1km less far, but with same power.. -> test in rc-forum showed: drop of inner restistance started after ~1000cycles
all other cells on market get higher and higher inner restistance during whole life, so not only loosing capacity but also power
* cell-voltage stays the same nearly during whole discharge (when discharged with >10C the voltage becomes even higher and higher the warmer the cells become
thats also very unique..
the Konion starts to drop in voltage after about halfe of discharge
the Samsung you have seem to be a little better on that from diagram
A123 -> you have at the last driven kilometers nearly the same power then you will have the first kilometers



so on this, A123 is supperior over the Sony (and Samsung cells)

advantages of the Sony-Cells:
* they are maybe the most-staying-in-balance cells on the market i know

the BOSCH-packs are sold WITHOUT a balancing-circuit inside !! thats very unique, no cellphone-battery, no laptop-battery is sold without that circuite..
also the A123 have a balancing-unit inside (which makes the packs 300g heavier)
so: alone this is a prove of how well the cells stay in balance, otherwise BOSCH would not be able or would risk it to sell them without such a balancing circuit !!
measurments done by people in rc-modellforum show:
after 70 cylces only a inbalance between the cells of only 0,004V between the cells.. thats like nothing !

the A123 cells can drift more, nevertheless do not need a balancing-unit in my eyes.. its enough when you check the cells for inbalance once or twice in a year and balance them manually if nesseccary

oh: for lifetime: from RC-modell experiences (which higher stress to the cells than in an e-bike) i would say: the A123 seem to hold about 3times more cylces than the Sony..

on a (legal 250Watt) bike i would nevertheless bet, that you can get 500cycles with the Sony-Cells
the cells will not see much more than 5C in an ebike.. thats preserving for the cells

=========================================

well, there is still so much to be said about the cells
however:
i think its a good decition of yours to use the BOSCH-battery (so don´t be confused, when i was writing here, that i think the A123 are superior cells)
i would take the BOSCH cell-packs any day instead of any NIMH-solution

 

[kraeuterbutter]

oh..
just to show you, what A123 cells can do (for me):

its a 7cells A123 pack (cellweight: only 490g !!!)
http://www.kraeuterbutter.at/Bilder2/AcrobatSE/Messwerte/A123 7s1p im AcrobatSE Messung Nr. 3.jpg
(make it full-size so you can read it)
yellow are the WATTS: ~400Watt average with peaks in the 1700Watt region
blue the volts
pink the rpm of the rotor

here the same flight showing the amps:
http://www.kraeuterbutter.at/Bilder2/AcrobatSE/Messwerte/A123 7s1p im AcrobatSE Messung Nr. 3 Teil 2.jpg
pink the amps: 20A average with peaks over 100A

what i wana say: with a street-legal bike (not the 1500Watt+ hub-motors some use int endlessphere-forum) its very very unlike that you can kill A123-cells...
my cells have now over 110cycles and performe subjektivly like on the first day.. as you can see on the graphs: they are stressed a lot

so: i hope you are not angry about me because of all this (little) offtopic..
but i like the A123cells so much, and had to wright this for some rehabilitation for the cells (for a bad housing with too weak fuse the cells can not be prosecute)

OH: there is one reason why A123 sometimes make puff or are dead:
people soldering them too hot !!!
but the same thing is true (even more true) for the Sony-cells in the BOSCH packs.. you have to be VERY carefully not heat the cells too much when soldering (use a strong iron for short soldering instead of a weak iron and than soldering the cells to death)

 

[UrbanPuma]

FatPhilips,your brompton looks great as does Tony Castles with the battry (very understated battery). How much would it cost to purchase and how is its ridability with the gears?

Im considering one for easy commuting into central london etc....any thoughts?

UrbanPuma

 

[faphillips]

Urbanpuma

I can only assume that you have actually seen me riding my bike to address me in such a fashion (no offence taken).

Sadly the picture of the green Titanium Brompton is the bike I had stolen in December. The insurance monies didn't run to replacing it with the Titanium bike so I now have a fairly standard Brompton. I did go for some weight saving and my bike ended up costing c £750 and it weighed 10.9kg as delivered. The bike now weighs 14.2 kg after fitting the Nano kit without the battery or bag. The standard Brompton Bag and 7Ah battery add another 4.51kg giving a total bike/bag/battery weight of 18.51kg. Interestingly the Titanium bike weighed 18.28 kg after conversion and the bike cost £987 so I definitely wouldn't go the Ti route again as that is a big cost for for such a small weight saving.

I expect that the smaller 2.6 Ah Bosch battery, which I am making a holder for today, will when carried in the bag reduce the total weight to c 16.4 kg all up.

I opted for the 2 speed version and I have no problem with this at all especially as it saved 0.63 kg over the standard 3 speed bike.

I find it reasonably easy to carry the bike in my left hand with the battery and bag over my right shoulder and commute into London on the train every day.

You will find details of the Nano here: Nano :: Bike Kits :: The Brompton - nano^TM

The price of the kit excluding battery and bag is £362. The battery will set you back another £294 and the bag another c £80 - as much as some complete electric bikes.

If you can cope with a battery range of only c 9 miles you could save some money and weight by fitting a Bosch 36 v battery directly to the luggage block as in the picture earlier in this thread. You will need to be fairly handy to make the carrier though.

I will be posting a full review of my bike in due course and details of how I get on with the Bosch battery and the various holders I am making for it.

If you bought a second hand bike and used the smaller battery mounted in the Brompton Bag I reckon you could do it for c £850 in total. If you buy a standard 3 speed Brompton and add the kit, the bag and the 7 Ah Li po battery it will cost you about £1,280. I would recommend the Schwalbe Marathon tyres. A £12 option with a 290 gram increase in weight but much better grip and really good puncture protection.

Hope this helps

Fat Francis

 

[Jeremy]

You can also buy the Nano motor, controller and throttle direct from TongXin, or from ebikes.ca. The cost of buying it this way is between 1/3 and 1/2 the cost of buying the kit in the UK, although you do need to get the wheel built and make up your own battery arrangements.

Here's a breakdown of the basic costs of the TongXin/Nano conversion on my 'bent, which uses a 20" (406) front wheel:

Motor and controller: $200 (about £100)
Cables, connectors and switches: about £15
36V 10Ah LiFePO4 battery and charger: $309 (about £155)
Thumb throttle: £6
Composite materials for battery housing: £4
406 rim for new front wheel: £16
Spokes: £9
Wheel build charge: £25

Total cost: £330 inc VAT and shipping costs. I could have saved a few pounds by re-using my old wheel rim and rebuilding the wheel myself, but I wanted to keep the original wheel complete as a spare and it's years since I built a wheel.

Jeremy

 

[faphillips]

Jeremy

You are overlooking the cost of a completely new widened front fork. Its not a DIY proposition on the Brompton. In fact the fork has to be un-brazed, the yolk cut and then re-brazed in a new position. The Brompton dropouts are c 72mm I believe whereas the Nano motor requires 100mm. There is a new narrow version of the Nano (Tongxin) motor that is just 76mm wide. It is of course less powerful. It still requires new forks because it not just about the width between dropouts but clearance for the motor.

Tony Castles arranges all of the work and therefore his markup is not that great especially as he guarantees it as well.

Francis

 

[kraeuterbutter]

hey.. 72mm Nano ?
have you a picture or better a link for that motor with more data ?

 

[Jeremy]

A new fork doesn't exactly cost a lot of money though, does it?

When I emailed for a quote for just a 20" wheel with motor and controller the price from Nano was the same as that quoted above for the Brompton.

Obviously I didn't need the forks or whatever.

Had I opted to buy the Nano-branded TongXin kit here in the UK, then it would have cost me around £700, instead of the £330 that I actually paid for the same, or better, components.

The mark-up seems to be a bit steep to me, but I guess we are all free to choose where to buy from.

Jeremy

 

[faphillips]

The narrow Nano motor is I believe 76 mm wide. I dont have any details although I have handled it and weighed it. It weighs 2.08 kg without the wheel whereas the standard nano weighs 2.41kg. Diana at Tongxin will give you details I expect.

The only advantage I can see of this motor is on a folding bike where the saving of c 300 mm in width is quite significant - the saving of 0.33 kg is also quite useful as well. I am told that it is c 20% less powerful however Simon Mills who is Tony Castles business partner said that on a short test run he didnt immediately notice any difference (on a Brompton)

For what its worth this is my bike

This what the Bosch battery looks like compared to the standard battery and using it in the holder I made this morning I can get my laptop and papers in the bag as well.

Francis

 

[kraeuterbutter]

ah.. i like that bike of yours..
even in the small 20" rim the motor looks tiny..
very nice..

for he smaller Nano with 76mm and only 2kg weight

iam still faszinated from this kind of design: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=7759
hub-motor, but driven through gears..
go up the steepest hills, nevertheless silent because the motor does spin very slow..
with the nano and its rolls instead of teeth it should work for such a setup very well:
light, quiet, small in diameter AND now also only 76mm

if there are any torque-problems with the nano: with such a setup you can increase torque by factor 5 and neverthless have the speed-assistance at 30km/h

well well... just brain-jogging

 

[mk1]

iam still faszinated from this kind of design: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=7759
hub-motor, but driven through gears..
go up the steepest hills, nevertheless silent because the motor does spin very slow..
with the nano and its rolls instead of teeth it should work for such a setup very well:
light, quiet, small in diameter AND now also only 76mm


well well... just brain-jogging

Presumably it would need to be able to take a screw on freewheel, does the Tongxin/Nano motor come in a rear wheel version?

Martin

 

[faphillips]

The Brompton has 16" wheels and fairly good Torque. Its a very good hill climber but effectively if you dont pedal it wont go faster than 15 mph.

I like the bike you linked to but I couldnt take that on a crowded comuter train whereas I can with the Brompton.

Francis

 

[kraeuterbutter]

of course..
i just thought about it, when i heard, that the new nano is only 76mm...
so it would be slim enough that it does not disturbe the knees when pedaling

have you ever tried a 26" folding bike?
there are some, but it seem,that you always have to remove the front wheel..
just thought, because i will do - as a part-time-job - this spring/summer
bike - courier service in vienna...
(little extra-money beside my studies on the TU-Wien)

however: sometimes the assignment are far away from each other, and it would be usefull to go by subway / express train sometimes..
BUT: bikes are not allowed all time and you have to pay for them as well...

with a folder, this would be different..
but can you fold a 26" bike small enough ?
when iam going with bike here in city (without motor) iam often ~35km/h fast
so i don´t think, that i would get that kind fo speed and comfort from ANY 20" folder ??????