"Super light electric bikes could soon be a reality..." ??

[flecc]

So why do you turn it off if it adds to safety? Seems a bit foolish.

Why did you post this when I've just said it adds nothing to safety? It's not foolish at all to turn it off, the sound just adds an irritating low level noise that pollutes the environment while being useless for its intended purpose.

Since I couldn't hear mine when inside the car I carried out some experiments in the huge car park of the superstore I use. I usually park at the far end so once having shopped I slowly drive the very long aisle between all the parked cars where pedestrians also walk along to the supermarket. They step into the path of my car whether the sound is on or off, it makes absolutely no difference, presumably because the sound has no relationship to any normal car noise so is ignored. I've done these experiments with air-con and off, since that makes a slightly more effective car noise, especially when working hard on cold days, but of course with temperatures so variable it can't be relied on for that.

The problem needs to be solved ASAP, since having the roads full of e-cars making all sorts of different sounds would be a nightmare of unbearable road noise. At least the sound spectrum of the present ic engines and exhausts is similar and blends into a common low frequency band of sound we can live with.

With respect I hope you can understand now that there is far, far more to this issue than you ever suspected and it's beyond the ability to casually comment without the necessary knowledge and experience.
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[Amoto65]

Why did you post this when I've just said it adds nothing to safety?

"even though they won't add anything to safety like my one when it's on."
It was you who said yours added to safety in your previous post.

 

[flecc]

"even though they won't add anything to safety like my one when it's on."
It was you who said yours added to safety in your previous post.

No I did not !!!

"Won't add anything to safety like my one" means my one also doesn't add to safety.

To read as you'd read it that mine added to safety, I would have posted this word form:

"even though they won't add anything to safety, unlike my one when it's on."

Your "disagree" just posted show how closed and unwilling to learn your mind is.
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[Amoto65]

Your "disagree" just posted show how closed and unwilling to learn your mind is.

Or maybe how foolish you are for turning it off.

 

[flecc]

Or maybe how foolish you are for turning it off.

You are just being perverse. Why should I use something that totally fails to do what it should and is of no use? And why is it on e-cars when all the other almost silent vehicles have never had it?

I can tell you why, it's because people like you created a foolish law in an unthinking reaction to something new.

A more sensible law would require all vehicles to emit a minimum of an agreed level of sound, so not only e-cars but all the almost silent luxury cars, trolley buses, bicycles and even trams would do the same. That would make some sense.

But even more sensible is to leave drivers of all motor vehicles and cyclists to do as at present, drive or ride safely as required in law, using their horn or bell when necessary.
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[Amoto65]

And why is it on e-cars when all the other almost silent vehicles have never had it?

Because cars kill more people than bikes, and trolley buses and trams can be heard coming from far away. So if anyone is being perversely silly or foolish it appears to be you.

 

[flecc]

Because cars kill more people than bikes

That includes all the huge numbers of just as silent luxury cars, so as said, why not on them? The numbers are immaterial anyway, every death and serious injury on the roads is unacceptable, so even bicycles should be included if the measure does have value.

trolley buses and trams can be heard coming from far away.

At some speed yes, but at low speeds it's very different. There were many accidents with our trams hitting pedestrians at lower speeds in shared spaces in town when they were first introduced due to pedestrians just stepping into their path. Now their drivers do as I do in my e-car in areas where that is likely, taking the necessary steps to make sure it doesn't happen. It's not difficult.
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[jimriley]

Perhaps I could suggest something like this. Grab the soundtrack and upload it into the EMS.

spey and it's bolinder in luddenden foot

youtube.com

 

[flecc]

Perhaps I could suggest something like this. Grab the soundtrack and upload it into the EMS.

spey and it's bolinder in luddenden foot

youtube.com

You've helped to illustrate the problem. Imagine a packed city street full of e-cars all with sound emission choices of various sorts. Desperate pedestrians would willingly jump into the path of the cars to permanently escape the cacaphony.
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[flecc]

Because cars kill more people than bikes,

But there are far fewer e-cars than bicycles. About 150,000 pure e-cars in Britain and who knows how many millions of bicycles. In the ten years of their existance I haven't heard of a single pedestrian death caused by an e-car in Britain, but I'm sure It would have caused lots of publicity if there had been one. I've certainly heard of all the pedestrian deaths caused by cyclists in that time.

E-car sound is an answer looking for a problem that doesn't exist.
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[sjpt]

That includes all the huge numbers of just as silent luxury cars, so as said, why not on them?

Many luxury cars are pretty silent on the inside, but very far from silent on the outside. (The tyres are often the biggest offenders.)

I think there should be laws that require a car to be as silent outside as inside; that would concentrate the minds of the engineers on making the world a quieter place, rather than protecting the few from the noise.

 

[flecc]

Many luxury cars are pretty silent on the inside, but very far from silent on the outside. (The tyres are often the biggest offenders.)

True, but others like Rolls Royce, Bentley and at one time Lexus dealt with that too fairly effectively and I doubt tyre noise is any more noticed from a distance than the e-car noises. Plus wind from a pedestrian towards a car can stop any sound transmission, what ever it is, so only the eyes are of any use for reliable safety in all conditions.

I think there should be laws that require a car to be as silent outside as inside; that would concentrate the minds of the engineers on making the world a quieter place, rather than protecting the few from the noise.

I agree, but of course we already have those laws and the cars themselves. The laws are the ones banning i.c. cars shortly and the silent cars are the present e-cars. My one even has its bodywork shaped in places specifically to reduce all wind noise, internally and externally, even that from the door mirrors, and Honda's latest e-car has even done away with those mirrors, replacing them with rear view screens each side of the dashboard.
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[mike killay]

That's complete nonsense and irresponsible of anyone if only using ears to do that.

The junction from my road out to the T junction road at the end is made blind much of the time due to a bus stand on the immediate left with buses paused for several minutes. I woudn't dream of relying on hearing a vehicle for exiting, apart from anything else, I probably couldn't when inside my closed car. Whether walking, riding or driving I just edge out far enough to be able to start seeing if it's clear before advancing further, though when walking I usually just cross at a safer spot.

As I've told you, these e-car sounds have been found to be useless by huge numbers of drivers, as much as anything because none of them sound remotely like a motor vehicle so pedestrians and cyclists take no notice of them. We are the ones driving them so do know far more on the subject than armchair experts who've read something.

There's a big problem in deciding what sort of sound is needed and no consensus as yet. Imitating the low frequency spectrum of current vehicles isn't practical or possible in free air, and probably pointless when most of those vehicles are going to disappear from the roads anyway. An agreed standard sound worldwide is needed which all will recognise as a vehicle, but with research into this being fragmented across car companies and bodies like the RRL we are getting nowhere on it at present while models and numbers are being released at an ever increasing pace.

Anyway, from this year on new models in the UK will all have a sound locked in to satisfy the critics, even though they won't add anything to safety like my one when it's on.
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I think that consideration should be given not only to the obviously blind but to those with impaired vision.
People with impaired vision such as macula degeneration may not be particularly noticeable to others but to a certain extent they will rely on their hearing

 

[flecc]

I think that consideration should be given not only to the obviously blind but to those with impaired vision.
People with impaired vision such as macula degeneration may not be particularly noticeable to others but to a certain extent they will rely on their hearing

Which is wrong.

As I've said more than once above, they are already let down by all the quite silent vehicles on the road, many of the luxury cars, bicycles, even e-scooters now, and all the others I've listed above.

Add to that the fact that city background noise from all sources can drown out the sound of any one vehicle and an adverse wind can prevent one hearing an approaching sound and there is just one conclusion, only eyesight is satisfactory. Relying on hearing is always dangerous and should be actively discouraged when at all avoidable.

Any experienced cyclist has often suffered a person walking into the road while facing away and relying only on not hearing a vehicle.

People with eyesight problems should as far as possible use pedestrian crossings and lobby for more of them where necessary, instead of risking their lives by relying on hearing instead.
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[snafu]

there is just one conclusion, only eyesight is satisfactory. Relying on hearing is always dangerous and should be actively discouraged when at all avoidable.

You can't be serious Flecc. Are you really suggesting people should actually look where they are going? Don't you realise they might miss something amongst all the world shattering facebook and Whatsapp conversations they are following.

TTFN
John.

 

[flecc]

You can't be serious Flecc. Are you really suggesting people should actually look where they are going? Don't you realise they might miss something amongst all the world shattering facebook and Whatsapp conversations they are following.

TTFN
John.

Of course I would never have expected them to actually follow the advice, just reflect on it from their hospital bed and maybe paste a printout onto their plaster cast.
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[Deleted member 33385]

The choice will be out of the hands of electric car owners soon, and I think that's the right decision, because about this, some minds will never change. However, the legal requirement of 56db is far too quiet - that's only about the volume of an electric toothbrush! I hope that the older EVs with adjustable sound generation devices get retrofitted or crushed.

I'm sure that drivers of EVs would love to preserve their silent ride, but here's no reason why some level of soundproofing can't be added to the design of EVs to reduce those tiny 56dbs for drivers and passengers - apart from the extra weight that sound-dampening material would add, reducing vehicle range; a critical factor in the range wars.

The population is getting older. Many older people have issues with eyesight, hearing, mobility (can't spring spritely out of the way of a Nissan Leaf on silent assassin mode). It's terrifying being a pedestrian these days. Drivers of hulking masses of steel and plastic on wheels don't even indicate.

 

[Nealh]

Any e-car noise is not for the benefit of the user, it is there to make any unsuspecting third party using the road or footpath aware of it's presence. It's not just about adults, there are the young and other venerable people as well.

 

[flecc]

the legal requirement of 56db is far too quiet - that's only about the volume of an electric toothbrush!

Exactly as I've already said, useless. But as also said, that can't change without international aggreement on a single standard sound. The present mix of all manner of sounds at a sufficient volume to warn would be unbearable noise pollution, hence the legal requirement being so low.

I'm sure that drivers of EVs would love to preserve their silent ride, but here's no reason why some level of soundproofing can't be added to the design of EVS to reduce those tiny 56dbs for drivers and passengers - apart from the extra weight that sound-dampening material would add, reducing vehicle range; a critical factor in the range wars.

This you've got totally wrong, it's nothing to do with that. Our e-cars are already blissfully silent inside since they generate no real noise so we aren't looking for reduction for that reason. The only noise I get is from very poor road surfaces. As I posted already, that forward facing sound cant be heard even with all windows open, I have to get out and stand in front of the car with someone else moving the car for me to hear it. Even if louder it won't affect the occupants.

The population is getting older. Many older people have issues with eyesight, hearing, mobility (can't spring spritely out of the way of a Nissan Leaf on silent assassin mode). It's terrifying being a pedestrian these days. Drivers of hulking masses of steel and plastic on wheels don't even indicate.

Applies to all silent vehicles and most cars when there's an adverse wind blowing or very heavy rain. They damp out sound from vehicles. The answer for pedestrian fear is having far more considerate drivers with laws really toughened up to enforce that. The population need to be made to understand that owning a car is not a right but a valuable privilege that can be lost at the first sign of any anti-social behaviour.

Overall I'm completely against adding any noise to anything, we've made this world far too noisy already, from damaging our own hearing to killing cetaceans. A world with restrained separated sounds is a blessing we once enjoyed and the sooner we return to it, the better for everyone.
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[Deleted member 33385]

Any e-car noise is not for the benefit of the user, it is there to make any unsuspecting third party using the road of it's presence. It's not just about adults, there are the young and other venerable people as well.

I got knocked over as a 7 year old kid - we were trying to cross a very busy road and my (older) friend said it was ok, ran across, I followed him, and the next thing I know I'm being pulled out from under the car by a Policeman. I don't know if he was already nearby, or if I was knocked out and he was called to the scene. I was flat on my back under the car facing the undercarriage - minor injuries and a bump to the back of the head. It's a pointless bit of info to share on this thread I know, but being knocked over ain't fun! It's a good job bones are rubbery at that age.