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Sprocket wear
- Thread starter HughMorris
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I agree Nealh. My Haibike Yamaha was the cheapest entry level bike that Haibike offered back in 2015. There were other Haibikes using the same motor system that were a magnitude of thousands more, probably as much as four times more expensive for the top of the range full suspension Haibike using exactly the same motor but with a much higher level of specification in relation to the parts fitted.
I bought mine to commute on and had no idea at the time that the Yamaha motor was more robust in terms of its bearings than the Bosch and inherently more suitable for commuting . I was lucky to choose it.
However its ability off road meant that I could ride much more demanding and technical routes to work having great fun within the capabilities of the bike rather than hammer my Emate on tracks it just was not designed to cope with.
The trouble was that at the end of a late shift I wanted to get home as fast as possible riding late at night on the road using a 10 mile B road route. The transmission of The Haibike was dirty from the cross country ride to work, and then the power of both me and the motor at first wreaked havoc with the 11 tooth top gear sprocket causing it to wear out prematurely.
I eventually found a simple way to extend the life of The Haibike transmission on the road route home by simply increasing the gearing with a larger chain ring and using a different but cheap 9 speed cassette with a 12 tooth top gear and a 14 tooth gear 8. I learnt only to use the lowest assist level when using the top gear. My bike could assist above the legal limit. Using the same road route each time I learnt exactly what assist levels were required for each section. Impressively the bike could complete the 10 mile journey in 30 minutes. I raised my gearing to the highest point that my bottom 36 tooth sprocket could still get me up the steepest most technical hill on my off road routes into work. I bought my bike in March 2015 and used it until I retired in October 2021.
After retiring I no longer needed that higher gearing or ability to hold cruising speeds on or slightly above 20 mph and simply put a smaller chain ring back on.
Before I bought The Haibike I had already been commuting to work for two years on my rear hub Oxygen, but had begun to experiment with an off road route to work and found that although the Oxygen was much more capable off road than I had expected I was still limited to the easier tracks, the advent of crank drive bikes and their ability off road made me want to get one.
At the beginning I was a boy with a new toy and used The Haibike for all my shifts at work including the early ones when I would ride both to work and back on the road. This just led to me wearing out transmission parts.
When I thought it through I came up with the best way for me to commute to work and back. On any shift that I needed to ride on the road both ways I used one of my rear hub bikes, which were better suited to commuting on the road and nicer to ride in that environment.
On any shift where there was time and daylight to ride on my off road route I used The Haibike.
That became a perfect compromise until I retired. Both styles of bike are brilliant, but it was best to use the bike best suited to the task. Once I started doing this the transmission on my Haibike lasted longer as my 14/16 mile off road route was ridden at a slower speed using the lowest assist level or no assist and generally in gears 1 to 7 rather than the more vulnerable top two gears. As I only used The Haibike when I could use the cross country route to work it was proportionately used much less on the road where the constant higher speeds caused the premature wear to my top two gears.
Andy makes very good points which I mostly agree with but just like life it is not quite as simple as he makes out and there can be very good reasons to favour a crank drive over a rear hub. If you can, have the best of both worlds like me.
I bought mine to commute on and had no idea at the time that the Yamaha motor was more robust in terms of its bearings than the Bosch and inherently more suitable for commuting . I was lucky to choose it.
However its ability off road meant that I could ride much more demanding and technical routes to work having great fun within the capabilities of the bike rather than hammer my Emate on tracks it just was not designed to cope with.
The trouble was that at the end of a late shift I wanted to get home as fast as possible riding late at night on the road using a 10 mile B road route. The transmission of The Haibike was dirty from the cross country ride to work, and then the power of both me and the motor at first wreaked havoc with the 11 tooth top gear sprocket causing it to wear out prematurely.
I eventually found a simple way to extend the life of The Haibike transmission on the road route home by simply increasing the gearing with a larger chain ring and using a different but cheap 9 speed cassette with a 12 tooth top gear and a 14 tooth gear 8. I learnt only to use the lowest assist level when using the top gear. My bike could assist above the legal limit. Using the same road route each time I learnt exactly what assist levels were required for each section. Impressively the bike could complete the 10 mile journey in 30 minutes. I raised my gearing to the highest point that my bottom 36 tooth sprocket could still get me up the steepest most technical hill on my off road routes into work. I bought my bike in March 2015 and used it until I retired in October 2021.
After retiring I no longer needed that higher gearing or ability to hold cruising speeds on or slightly above 20 mph and simply put a smaller chain ring back on.
Before I bought The Haibike I had already been commuting to work for two years on my rear hub Oxygen, but had begun to experiment with an off road route to work and found that although the Oxygen was much more capable off road than I had expected I was still limited to the easier tracks, the advent of crank drive bikes and their ability off road made me want to get one.
At the beginning I was a boy with a new toy and used The Haibike for all my shifts at work including the early ones when I would ride both to work and back on the road. This just led to me wearing out transmission parts.
When I thought it through I came up with the best way for me to commute to work and back. On any shift that I needed to ride on the road both ways I used one of my rear hub bikes, which were better suited to commuting on the road and nicer to ride in that environment.
On any shift where there was time and daylight to ride on my off road route I used The Haibike.
That became a perfect compromise until I retired. Both styles of bike are brilliant, but it was best to use the bike best suited to the task. Once I started doing this the transmission on my Haibike lasted longer as my 14/16 mile off road route was ridden at a slower speed using the lowest assist level or no assist and generally in gears 1 to 7 rather than the more vulnerable top two gears. As I only used The Haibike when I could use the cross country route to work it was proportionately used much less on the road where the constant higher speeds caused the premature wear to my top two gears.
Andy makes very good points which I mostly agree with but just like life it is not quite as simple as he makes out and there can be very good reasons to favour a crank drive over a rear hub. If you can, have the best of both worlds like me.
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I agree Andy that it would be quite simple to provide a heavier duty chain, chain ring and rear cassette design with perhaps as few as seven widely spaced gears.
After all motor bike chains hardly ever break and suffer the same single point of failure potential that you highlight.
For applications where reliability and longevity are more important than saving weight or outright performance, a so designed crank drive commuter bike or adventure bike would you have thought be highly appealing to many people.
The closest to this I have seen is the extremely expensive Rohloff rear hub gearing system paired with either a chain or a belt.
It does not need to be that complicated, either a derailleur system properly designed to cope with the power of crank drive motors or a similar hub gear system.
But then it would last a very long time with minimal maintenance and manufacturers don't want that!
After all motor bike chains hardly ever break and suffer the same single point of failure potential that you highlight.
For applications where reliability and longevity are more important than saving weight or outright performance, a so designed crank drive commuter bike or adventure bike would you have thought be highly appealing to many people.
The closest to this I have seen is the extremely expensive Rohloff rear hub gearing system paired with either a chain or a belt.
It does not need to be that complicated, either a derailleur system properly designed to cope with the power of crank drive motors or a similar hub gear system.
But then it would last a very long time with minimal maintenance and manufacturers don't want that!
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I have probably been quite fortunate, as my two most impairing failures happened one within reach of a bike shop, and the other during a work week on my 4km commute, so neither hurt me greatly.Thanks for the reply (assuming that you are replying to my question of course), but none of these are specific to a hub bike, as I asked. In fact they are applicable to any bike, electric or not, except the last one......
The very specific "single point of failure" I tend to mention, to fully inform e-bike newbies, on mid motor e-bikes with chain drive systems, is, as far as I can see, specific only to mid motor chain drive systems.....
Though there are a couple of mid motor systems with drive shafts, but tend to be even more expensive than the usual chain drive mid motor bikes......sadly!!!
If an e-bike company managed to produce a drive shaft version, priced below that of the chain drive mid motor systems, and kept nasty firmware away from the design, they really do have the chance to make some big money.....and have happy customers.
With the present mid motor designs with chains, due to the way the torque is transmitted to the rear wheel, I do not see much of a possible improvement in wear characteristic, in the forseeable future.
Now that statement will really get the mid motor "fans" up and shouting again, because they don't want it to be true. But physics, as einstein would say, rarely change as we might wish them to!
A possible "kwik-fix", might be with really heavy duty chains, running on fully hardened sprockets, all at least twice as wide as the present versions, plus instensive cleaning and lubrication as least once a month, or possibly an old fashioned, fully enclosed, chain guard, to prevent dust/mud/water getting on the chain. My first bike had one a great many years ago!!
Or:-
Vintage Rudge Raleigh 26” Wheel Oil Bath Bicycle Chainguard Chain Guard • £26.00
VINTAGE RUDGE RALEIGH 26” Wheel Oil Bath Bicycle Chainguard Chain Guard - £26.00. FOR SALE! VINTAGE RUDGE OR RALEIGH BICYCLE OILBATH CHAIN GUARD IN DARK RED IN USED CONDITION NOT ROTTEN HAS SOME DINGS AND SCRAPES COMES WITH ALL FITTING ONLY PART MISSING IS THE OIL CAP SEE PICTURESFREE P & P UK...picclick.co.uk
A modern design, in a lightweight material, might reduce the need for chain cleaning and re-lubing!
Enclosed chain guard removal | Vintage Lightweight Bicycles
I have been trying to remove the enclosed chain guard on my 53 Churchill De-Lux. That has been an interesting endeavor. The crank had been rubbing the chain guard so I figured it would be best to remove the chain guard and tweak the crank arm just a little. To do this the guard has to be...thecabe.com
regards
Andy
Any failure I can cure on the road is for me no longer a problem, as long as my spares and tools are lighter than a cup of tea and smaller than a good pasty.
As for 'the big one', I recently found a barely used spare motor for my Shimano e5000 for under £200, the original sounds and rides no different to new after 8,500 miles, so not needed for quite some time, but won't be a big deal when it is.
I've no objection at all to hub motors, I just don't see my particular riding and area as compatible with them. I see gradients of MTB severity every time I go out, so mid-drive and low gears is the right horse for my course.
I have a winter project to fit 11 speed to my modest bike and have a go at Bealach na Ba with 38T front 50T rear, which I did not dare attempt with 36T rear in the summer! That's the kind of thing I want to wind my way up slowly and easily, not leave for another day.
Its what I am as I have always stood up for myself and for anyone weaker, at all times in my 76 year old life. Its how others treat me, other people with no intelligence and no basic good manners.
Also seen far too often here on pedelec.....
But I have always allowed people who look for a physical fight with me, to have the first punch, not that it did them any good, as my Father, an electrical Engineer, started teaching me boxing when I first started school at age 5, as some other badly brought up little pig, punched me on my first day at school in passing, with no conversation! Just a thump in the stomache....a cowards blow in my book, as we had never even met till he hit me!!!
It was a revelation Iabout bad people that I
have never ever forgotten.Dad afterwards taught me well, as he was a school boxing champion in his youth, he was the one who trained me to never hit anyone first, but I never fought in a ring, as I have a so called "glass nose", which bleeds at the tiniest provocation, and looks far worse than it really is!! I did discover that Bleeding on an opponent, when you are sitting on him and he's getting a red shower, usually stops most school time fights!!
Not Navy ones though!!
Two years later the same little pig picked on me again, and got taken to hospital after about 30 seconds, with a badly damaged nose (that was never right afterwards...), again I allowed him the first punch, but I still got a telling off till I mentioned my first day experience, and he also later admitted it.
A dumb school bully, I still remember his name, Les Cope!!
Its important to remember, that all bullies are dumb (Trump?), as they cannot win verbal fights!
Its the socalled "Dunning Kruger effect"! The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias whereby people with low ability, expertise, or experience regarding a certain type of task or area of knowledge tend to overestimate their ability or knowledge. Wikipedia
Trump is used as an example, by a US University Professor, David Dunning, teaching the "Dunning-Kruger effect" to Psychology students!
See here:-
In the Royal Navy (1963 to 1973), there are occasional fist fights (sad to say!), around one a year for me, of which I can honestly say, I never lost one, but several times I was (correctly) pulled off someone who was being half murdered (red mist?), but they then tried to get in a punch or two on me as I was being held back and unable to dodge! Now Navy Guys don't like that and I was immediately freed to finish my aggressive attacker as I saw fit.
I was never charged with fighting!
But I always gave them the first punch, as I never ever punched anyone first! Navy rules and regs that whoever starts a fight will get the full blame....NOT ME!!
My last really serious fight, was many years ago, in my own dining room, when a girlfriend of my first wife, brought her drunken boyfriend to our party, who challenged me to go outside IMMEDIATELY (village idiot), who was so drunk he could hardly stand up, but had muscles on places where most people did not, except for his very thin legs! I dodged his first attempt at a hit (I was still sober) and he got the "shoe in the face" treatment, street fighting as learned in Trinidad and similar places, as I could imagine that he was far stronger than me in the upper body.
He had very long hair, I always have very short hair even as a boy (today about 6mm, my COVID CUT!), as long hair puts you at a huge disadvantage in any sort of a fight, as he found out!
He actually apologised to me (suddenly sober) when the Police arrived (called by my ex wife, the Police wanted to cart him off!), and the next day he was all the colours of the rainbow!! I sometimes wonder if he ever found out why.......he was SO drunk, he may have thought that I used my fists!!!
A subject that I have as good as forgotten today, only an old man's memories......So sorry to take up so much of your e-bike time on Pedelec.....
I liked the rest of your comments below, they showed good common sense....
Yo
You stick to educating us all. Meanwhile I, ll stick with crank drives. Thanks for help.
Mmm. We might get somewhere if you took as much trouble reading other poster's opinions as you do expressing your own. Not sure what your dad's occupation has to do with topic or why it's in slightest helpful aliking discussions about chain wear etc to fist fights in navy I have no idea.Its what I am as I have always stood up for myself and for anyone weaker, at all times in my 76 year old life. Its how others treat me, other people with no intelligence and no basic good manners.
Also seen far too often here on pedelec.....
But I have always allowed people who look for a physical fight with me, to have the first punch, not that it did them any good, as my Father, an electrical Engineer, started teaching me boxing when I first started school at age 5, as some other badly brought up little pig, punched me on my first day at school in passing, with no conversation! Just a thump in the stomache....a cowards blow in my book, as we had never even met till he hit me!!!
It was a revelation Iabout bad people that I
Dad afterwards taught me well, as he was a school boxing champion in his youth, he was the one who trained me to never hit anyone first, but I never fought in a ring, as I have a so called "glass nose", which bleeds at the tiniest provocation, and looks far worse than it really is!! I did discover that Bleeding on an opponent, when you are sitting on him and he's getting a red shower, usually stops most school time fights!!
Not Navy ones though!!
Two years later the same little pig picked on me again, and got taken to hospital after about 30 seconds, with a badly damaged nose (that was never right afterwards...), again I allowed him the first punch, but I still got a telling off till I mentioned my first day experience, and he also later admitted it.
A dumb school bully, I still remember his name, Les Cope!!
Its important to remember, that all bullies are dumb (Trump?), as they cannot win verbal fights!
Its the socalled "Dunning Kruger effect"! The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias whereby people with low ability, expertise, or experience regarding a certain type of task or area of knowledge tend to overestimate their ability or knowledge. Wikipedia
Trump is used as an example, by a US University Professor, David Dunning, teaching the "Dunning-Kruger effect" to Psychology students!
See here:-
You may like this one too:-
and this:-
In the Royal Navy (1963 to 1973), there are occasional fist fights (sad to say!), around one a year for me, of which I can honestly say, I never lost one, but several times I was (correctly) pulled off someone who was being half murdered (red mist?), but they then tried to get in a punch or two on me as I was being held back and unable to dodge! Now Navy Guys don't like that and I was immediately freed to finish my aggressive attacker as I saw fit.
I was never charged with fighting!
But I always gave them the first punch, as I never ever punched anyone first! Navy rules and regs that whoever starts a fight will get the full blame....NOT ME!!
My last really serious fight, was many years ago, in my own dining room, when a girlfriend of my first wife, brought her drunken boyfriend to our party, who challenged me to go outside IMMEDIATELY (village idiot), who was so drunk he could hardly stand up, but had muscles on places where most people did not, except for his very thin legs! I dodged his first attempt at a hit (I was still sober) and he got the "shoe in the face" treatment, street fighting as learned in Trinidad and similar places, as I could imagine that he was far stronger than me in the upper body.
He had very long hair, I always have very short hair even as a boy (today about 6mm, my COVID CUT!), as long hair puts you at a huge disadvantage in any sort of a fight, as he found out!
He actually apologised to me (suddenly sober) when the Police arrived (called by my ex wife, the Police wanted to cart him off!), and the next day he was all the colours of the rainbow!! I sometimes wonder if he ever found out why.......he was SO drunk, he may have thought that I used my fists!!!
A subject that I have as good as forgotten today, only an old man's memories......So sorry to take up so much of your e-bike time on Pedelec.....
I liked the rest of your comments below, they showed good common sense....
You stick to educating us all. Meanwhile I, ll stick with crank drives. Thanks for help.
Great post!
I was fairly sure that someone here would show the Dunning Kruger effect in action!
-and they did!
Many thanks
Andy
If your chains have quick links and you can replace the chain yourself, then you could try 'chain rotation'. I keep all my old chains and refit them again as the sprockets wear down as you cant put a new chain on an old sprocket. Better explained below. e.g.
I'm sure it's been said before, but I'd like to see a mid drive with the motor running it's own strong chain and sprocket on the left side of the wheel, leaving the right side for human input. Obviously it would cost more so probably won't be done.
With things seeming to get more and more proprietary and locked down, maybe we need more "Open Controller" projects?
The Swizzbee that Nealh owns has an in frame Heinzmann motor driving the left side of the rear wheel via a belt and pulley, deraileur gears on the right for the rider.
.
Clever.If your chains have quick links and you can replace the chain yourself, then you could try 'chain rotation'. I keep all my old chains and refit them again as the sprockets wear down as you cant put a new chain on an old sprocket. Better explained below. e.g.
I really don't feel that I need it, but when I need to repace the chain/Cassette, I may well try it out, as old Scots try anything to save a few Bob!!
Many thanks.
Andy
Someone has a switched on brain! That appears to me to be an excellent way to "fix the problem!"
I wonder if the chain wear is seriously reduced or not, does anyone have some facts? Theoretically, chain wear should be about the same as a hub bike.....
regards
Andy
Thank you, that's a fantastic idea - my rear cassette may be too old for that by now, but I may try swapping my new-ish chain for a new one, to see if it also wears in after 70 miles or so...If your chains have quick links and you can replace the chain yourself, then you could try 'chain rotation'. I keep all my old chains and refit them again as the sprockets wear down as you cant put a new chain on an old sprocket. Better explained below. e.g.
Sometimes a mid-drive is the right tool for the job, and for hauling heavy bike trailers up steep hills with my 20" wheeled folding bike, I don't think any legal hub motor would be capable - glad I bought a mid-drive. (A hub motor wasn't available for my bike at the time anyway, turns out I'm glad one wasn't).
That's a great way to lose teeth! Attack first if there are no witnesses! Leave no witness alive! (joking)
Objects in contact under pressure damaging each other?
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If your new chain skips after replacement and you can separate the individual worn sprocket, its also possible to 'dress' or reshape the 'U' of a worn cog with a round file rather than replacing the sprockets. (e.g chainsaw sharpening file). I have done this and it works if the cog is not too badly worn. Explained below.
Technical FAQ: Chain hops and grinding cogs
A reader is wondering why his chain comes off the biggest cog on a 1x mountain bike cog, and how to refurbish cassettes.
www.velonews.com
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On the Swizzbee that wouldn't be possible to assess Andy, since the drive is a balanced one between the motor and belt drive on the left and the deraileur on the right.
To achieve this the rear hub is a differential. The electric motor and belt drives a sun wheel, the crown gear is driven by muscle power through the r/h derailleur, and the power take-off is provided by a planetary-gear carrier on the driven wheel of the bicycle.
Hence both share the drive need, according to what each, rider and motor, puts in.
Information Link
Information Link 2 (Alternative version)
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Just to offer perspective.
There is a common misconception that power transmission is the culprit for chain wear. It isn't. As I mentioned earlier the major influence is actually torque, which with chain drives exhibits itself with a difference in tension between the driven side and the slack. Folk then hit an issue with misunderstanding of torque and power. (Andy had it in his head since average riders can only churn out 100w they can not be responsible for chain wear. That is utterly wrong)
Somebody standing on a static pedal is putting extreme amounts of torque into the system (simply their weight in lbs x length of crank in feet to arrive at foot pounds) but with no movement is actually producing zero work.!(ie no watts at all)
So that person even only producing 100 w can still inflict damage to teeth etc which then goes onto show itself as wear, but because a motor is also involved we blame that.
The motor, for want of a better description, gives gentle, smooth assistance with fairly constant low figures of torque. The rider supplies pulses of extreme torque,especially at low cadence. (with result of much damaging torque and low power)
The motor produces its power by delivering relatively little torque but at high rpm..
Invariably, damage sustained even on crank drives, is initiated by rider, not the motor. The motor simply exacerbates the inherent weakness in lightweight chain drives. The riders do all the damage. High mileage is put on crank drives by simply riding, pedaling and changing gear as we really should.
There is a common misconception that power transmission is the culprit for chain wear. It isn't. As I mentioned earlier the major influence is actually torque, which with chain drives exhibits itself with a difference in tension between the driven side and the slack. Folk then hit an issue with misunderstanding of torque and power. (Andy had it in his head since average riders can only churn out 100w they can not be responsible for chain wear. That is utterly wrong)
Somebody standing on a static pedal is putting extreme amounts of torque into the system (simply their weight in lbs x length of crank in feet to arrive at foot pounds) but with no movement is actually producing zero work.!(ie no watts at all)
So that person even only producing 100 w can still inflict damage to teeth etc which then goes onto show itself as wear, but because a motor is also involved we blame that.
The motor, for want of a better description, gives gentle, smooth assistance with fairly constant low figures of torque. The rider supplies pulses of extreme torque,especially at low cadence. (with result of much damaging torque and low power)
The motor produces its power by delivering relatively little torque but at high rpm..
Invariably, damage sustained even on crank drives, is initiated by rider, not the motor. The motor simply exacerbates the inherent weakness in lightweight chain drives. The riders do all the damage. High mileage is put on crank drives by simply riding, pedaling and changing gear as we really should.
Sheldon Brown has nice picture below shown the wear on the chains pins and bushes that causes the chain stretch. This wear takes place as the chain bends when wrapping itself around the sprockets under tension. I would say there are many factors that increase chain wear. For example, the smaller the sprockets, the more the chain bends/wears at pins. Those small 11 tooth sprockets cause a lot of wear. Also more torque puts more tension on chain when bending at small sprocket and increases wear. Also other factors e.g Chainline......dirt in links.....lubrication........milage........
Of course, wear takes place in other areas e.g rollers. But I think chain elongation due to pin and bush wear is the major culprit. This elongation/change of chain pitch causes extra friction between the chain and sprockets as they no longer match up.
Of course, wear takes place in other areas e.g rollers. But I think chain elongation due to pin and bush wear is the major culprit. This elongation/change of chain pitch causes extra friction between the chain and sprockets as they no longer match up.
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