Speeding... Guardian article

On a legal techicality that's true since our UK e-bike law still is limited to 200 watts, However a DfT waiver extends that to 250 watts rating.

Above that the Low Powered Moped class applies to machines up to 1000 watts with or without pedals or throttles and still limited to 16 mph motor driven speed.

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Re pedelecs regarded as mechanised then?

No, legal electrically assisted bicycles are classed as bicycles when applying the law to their use. I would think that if you stepped outside of the legal definition of a legal electrically assisted bicycle, it would be viewed as being a mechanically propelled vehicle in any prosecution.

This has been chewed over so many times, you must have read about it somewhere?

No, legal electrically assisted bicycles are classed as bicycles when applying the law to their use. I would think that if you stepped outside of the legal definition of a legal electrically assisted bicycle, it would be viewed as being a mechanically propelled vehicle in any prosecution.

 

This has been chewed over so many times, you must have read about it somewhere?

Yes tillson, If regurgitated

MS.

Oops

I couldn't open the Guardian article when I posted my reply. It's all in there.

Being a curious soul and before purchase I asked clarification of the to me mysterious 250wt bicycle issue from the Rt Hon Norman Baker who at the time was Under Secretary of State for Transport.

I pointed out and evidenced to the RT Hon that the national chain of Halfords were flogging 250wt pedelecs through out the length and breadth of the land without any advisory warnings regarding helmet/ tax/ insurance, rather a selling point being that they were (subject to simple age restriction) unencumbered.

While apologising for the delay of reply he in turn had asked advice from officials at the D of T.

I appreciate that Halfords selling 250kw bicycles could be a little confusing. I put this point to officials who stated that there is nothing to stop Halfords selling them as they can be used on the roads. However, as it currently stands they are classed as low power mopeds and need to be registered, taxed and insured. The rider also has to possess the correct licence and wear an approved motorcycle helmet.

In response I pointed out to the RT Hon that I feared I had become a victim of mis - selling as although there was no lack of companies who were blatently selling 250wt "pedelecs" (some with attempted disclaimers) as far as I could see not one company were advertising their wares as low power mopeds along with all it's encumbrances.

I asked that he fight my case for mis-selling should ever I become the unlucky one.

Not heard back from him yet... ... ... ...

Phil

And no doubt you won't Phil, this issue has been embarrassing for the DfT since 2003.

Of course your contact with Norman Baker was well before the issue of the DfT waiver permitting 250 watts on e-bikes, pending legislative changes making that permanent.

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Know the dates of my letters as I have copies but don't know the date of when the informal waver was.

The waiver was April 2013, more recent than Norman's tenure of course.

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Hi Flecc,

My first letter from the Rt Hon was dated 1st July 2013.

It was in response to my email of 5th June 2013 asking if it was Ok to buy a pedlec as I didn't particularly want to be a law breaker.

I asked for clarity.

In the letter of 1st July 2013 he advised to wait to purchase until the decision of the review (to increase 200 wts to 250 wts) is made public.

Didn't know when this was going to happen.

Aprox a week later 7th? July 2013 I emailed again evidencing that Halfords were selling ebikes with a 250wt motor without mentioning encumbrances such as licence /tax /insurance. I thought this significant as they are a national chain.

His reply was slow in coming and dated 27th August 2013.

In this he reaffirmed that his advice of 1st July was accurate, that he had contacted the D of T (hence the delay of reply).... that as it currently stands they are classed as low power mopeds and need to be registered, taxed and insured.

The rider also has to possess the correct licence and wear an approved motorcycle helmet.

that there is nothing to stop Halfords selling them as they can be used on the roads.

Both letters are dated after the waiver of April 2013 the last letter by 4 months.

Norman Baker was the parliamentary under secretary for state for transport until Oct 2013

PhilX

Oh dear! Where does that leave all our forum's Fun Prevention Officers now with their illegal bikes?

I think that they're pretty well limited to a "200w" Heinzmann kit, a Thompson shopper, or Powabyke Euro or Shopper.

Oh dear! Where does that leave all our forum's Fun Prevention Officers now with their illegal bikes?

 

I think that they're pretty well limited to a "200w" Heinzmann kit, a Thompson shopper, or Powabyke Euro or Shopper.

Hahahahahahaha.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Oh how my sides are hurting, laughing at the holier than thou brigade. Oh my oh my, that's made my day.

Just off for a quick blast on my low powered moped whilst I'm in a very good mood.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

If anyone on an illegal 250w bike ever gets charged, I'm going to provide Normans letter as evidence in support of a prosecution - you know, just like someone on here threatened to do to me if I ever got caught on my ebike.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Hi Flecc,

 

My first letter from the Rt Hon was dated 1st July 2013.

It was in response to my email of 5th June 2013 asking if it was Ok to buy a pedlec as I didn't particularly want to be a law breaker.

I asked for clarity.

 

In the letter of 1st July 2013 he advised to wait to purchase until the decision of the review (to increase 200 wts to 250 wts) is made public.

Didn't know when this was going to happen.

Obviously some crossed wires in the DfT. Whoever gave him that information was obviously not aware of this from the DfT:

Summary of Government response to consultation

2.The Department for Transport has considered the responses to this consultation and supports recommendations to harmonise power limits (from 200 Watts to 250 Watts) with similar provisions in place across Europe. This will provide consumers with access to a wider range of electrically assisted cycles.

Extracts from intentions:

The DfT and Police are aware that electric bikes currently sold and used in the UK are fitted with 250W motors, they do not intend to become involved in prosecuting those that sell or ride them. The use of an "Off Road Button" however is strictly forbidden now and is specifically mentioned in documents appertaining to new and existing guidelines.

"Grandfather rights" will apply to all bikes sold before the new regulations come into force. So any changes will not be retrospective.

This was the conclusion of a meeting with many interested parties including BEBA, other trade interests and the police. This has been published in this forum several times not only by myself but also by BEBA and all BEBA main members are aware of it.

It's not unusual for ministers or even the odd prime minister to be accidentally misled on a variety of subjects as you may have read from time to time. Personally they are the last persons I'd ask about any legal technical matter. The civil servant who Norman asked has probably simply looked up the law and not consulted the DfT person specifically charged with e-bike matters. Yes, there is such a person, but it's only a part of their duties.

.

Edited July 25, 201411 yr by flecc

Hahahahahahaha.

 

Hahahahahahahahahahaha.

 

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

 

Oh how my sides are hurting, laughing at the holier than thou brigade. Oh my oh my, that's made my day.

 

Just off for a quick blast on my low powered moped whilst I'm in a very good mood.

 

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

 

If anyone on an illegal 250w bike ever gets charged, I'm going to provide Normans letter as evidence in support of a prosecution - you know, just like someone on here threatened to do to me if I ever got caught on my ebike.

 

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

What we must remember here is that some forum members have parted with a considerable sum of money in good faith. Many thought that they were buying a road legal Ebike and they were basing their purchase decision on information provided on most of the seller's websites. I certainly know that 50 Cycles website used to carry legal information stating that their products could be used legally on UK roads, as did most of the other prominent retailer's websites, some of which were / are members of BEBA.

Returning to the people who have bought, what they thought were legal bikes; all that they are guilty of is trying to be responsible people and I suppose that in your eyes they have fallen victim to miss-information and miss-selling, which I don't find remotely funny.

It's interesting to note that those who promote the blatant illegal use of ebikes (those not even conforming to EU Regs), seem to take a perverse delight in the perception of other people's misfortune. Many of the EU legal bike owners have been silent in the often heated debates regarding legal & illegal bikes, so I don't understand why anyone would feel happiness in the circumstances outlined above. It's unnatural.

In the meantime, I shall continue to use my 250 Watt Pedelec and rely on the understanding that users of such bikes will not be prosecuted.

Sorry amigafan2003, d8veh and saneagle if I have spoilt your Friday evenings for you. A repeat season of Embarrassing Bodies or The Jeremy Kyle show will no doubt be on TV soon. You can watch that and feel better about yourselves.

 

In the meantime, I shall continue to use my 250 Watt Pedelec and rely on the understanding that users of such bikes will not be prosecuted

by the Police.

Sorry amigafan2003, d8veh and saneagle if I have spoilt your Friday evenings for you.

Oh contrare mona mi. You being goaded into a lengthy (and wasteful) response has doubled my enjoyment of this evenings festivities!

Obviously some crossed wires in the DfT. Whoever gave him that information was obviously not aware of this from the DfT:

 

Summary of Government response to consultation

 

2.The Department for Transport has considered the responses to this consultation and supports recommendations to harmonise power limits (from 200 Watts to 250 Watts) with similar provisions in place across Europe. This will provide consumers with access to a wider range of electrically assisted cycles.

 

Extracts from intentions:

 

The DfT and Police are aware that electric bikes currently sold and used in the UK are fitted with 250W motors, they do not intend to become involved in prosecuting those that sell or ride them. The use of an "Off Road Button" however is strictly forbidden now and is specifically mentioned in documents appertaining to new and existing guidelines.

 

"Grandfather rights" will apply to all bikes sold before the new regulations come into force. So any changes will not be retrospective.

 

This was the conclusion of a meeting with many interested parties including BEBA, other trade interests and the police. This has been published in this forum several times not only by myself but also by BEBA and all BEBA main members are aware of it.

 

It's not unusual for ministers or even the odd prime minister to be accidentally misled on a variety of subjects as you may have read from time to time. Personally they are the last persons I'd ask about any legal technical matter. The civil servant who Norman asked has probably simply looked up the law and not consulted the DfT person specifically charged with e-bike matters. Yes, there is such a person, but it's only a part of their duties.

.

This letter does not appear anywhere on the governments advice website or in the public domain so I as a rider feel I have no protection from the law.

Should it not be publicly published thus giving reassurance to riders?

Without it I have no confidence in my protection from the existing law.

Does anyone know where I can apply or from who I can obtain an official copy?

Armed with a copy I could then inquire whether or not it would would stand up if a private prosecution should ever be placed before the CPS.

Edited July 26, 201411 yr by shemozzle999

Hi Flecc,

Thank you for your reply it is appreciated.

A major problem is that as far as I can see is the document which contains the waiver is unavailable to Joe Public.

On a simple level if I Google “250wt electric bicycle waiver” or similar I would expect to see a document or a news item or an article from a major electric bike manufacturer/ supplier/ rejoicing in the event.

It must be a pivotal event in future well being of the electric bike industry.

Truth be that Google returns this forum.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=250wt+electric+bicycle+waiver

As a normal bloke uncertainty now exists as to the validity of the waiver especially if it’s weighed against two letters from the Rt Hon, for these letters are tangible.

Why doesn’t BEBA have this document plastered over the front of its web site instead of this:

http://www.beba.info/article/electric-bicycles-law

Very informative but not exactly definitive when you find the usual attempt at a disclaimer at the foot of the page.

It's in everyone's best interest that a consumer should be able to purchase a pedelec (often costing several £1000’s) with a lot more clarity of the law than at present.

Phil

It's in everyone's best interest that a consumer should be able to purchase a pedelec (often costing several £1000’s) with a lot more clarity of the law than at present.Phil

While I understand the point you labour Phil, the reality is that the whole matter is unclear and needs to be addressed by legislators.

As you understand that, perhaps your best course of action would be to refrain from riding EAPCs until such legislation is in place which might allay your concerns.

Tom

While I understand the point you labour Phil, the reality is that the whole matter is unclear and needs to be addressed by legislators.

 

As you understand that, perhaps your best course of action would be to refrain from riding EAPCs until such legislation is in place which might allay your concerns.

 

Tom

Hi Tom,

I am very pro pedelecs for all the reasons that are often written about. Its why I bother to ask questions and give opinion to those with influence.

Perhaps more voicing opinion in that manner would be no bad thing?

Speed up the process may be?

Express to a minister that you aren't too happy that he admits it's a grey area?

Better than doing begger all? ??

?

As you suggest there is no compunction to ride a pedelec it is a personal choice and I have put my money where my mouth is and made that choice.

However that doesn't distract from the need of legal clarification which can only be in everyone's best interest.

Phil