Speeding... Guardian article

PhilX

Pedelecer
Nov 8, 2012
40
2
Seaford East Sussex
Hi flecc,
Thanxs once again for your input.

I don't know if the best guarantee is the embarrassing position the DfT is in. It's one of those things that would have to be put to the test.
On the subject of police forces.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn39/philxphilx/front_zps967fb25c.jpg

The above is a picture of Wealden Police complete with what I think are Wisper electric bikes.
Dunno if they've been dumbed down to 200wts?
If not I'll have that as my defense!

Phil
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
Hi flecc,
Thanxs once again for your input.

I don't know if the best guarantee is the embarrassing position the DfT is in. It's one of those things that would have to be put to the test.
On the subject of police forces.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn39/philxphilx/front_zps967fb25c.jpg

The above is a picture of Wealden Police complete with what I think are Wisper electric bikes.
Dunno if they've been dumbed down to 200wts?
If not I'll have that as my defense!

Phil
No, they are indeed the standard 250 watt rated machines Phil. There are at least four police forces currently using 250 watt e-bikes, probably more but I don't remember all of them. None of the e-bikes supplied for trial or regular use by police forces over the last eight years have been "dumbed down" to 200 watts as you put it. They've all been 250 watt rated.

The embarrassing position for the DfT has already been put to the test as I've posted, the successful prevention of the intended prosecution case. I won't identify the traffic officer and force involved since I don't want to embarrass anyone, but both a couple of BEBA principals and I know who they are.
.
 

shemozzle999

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2009
2,826
686
Extract from a BEBA member user manual of an EN15194 approved 250W rated bicycle:

"There is a twist throttle provided on the right handlebar grip.
There is a red button by the throttle which, when pushed in, activates the throttle. Ensure that it is only pushed in when the throttle needs to be activated.
To use the throttle start pedalling as normal and once you have reached the speed you wish to travel at then twist the throttle.
After the throttle is used you can stop pedaling and the motor speed will be maintained.
Obviously, if the bicycle is used under throttle only without pedal assistance then the range will be substantially reduced."

Is the user covered by the waiver?
 

PhilX

Pedelecer
Nov 8, 2012
40
2
Seaford East Sussex
Every one who has a genuine interested in electric bikes from the mighty to the humble like myself accepts that at the moment the legal position needs clarifying.
Until this happens a multitude of questions will remain answered, it's the reason it needs clarifying.

I could ask that given the stance by the D of T to my letters why are Wealdon Police (among others it seems) boasting they are using electric bikes for community policing?
On lots of levels I have no problem with it ... think it's a great idea... but would think very differently if I was nicked by one.

Wish some of the knowledgeable members on this forum would put their points to the law makers. It's what they're there for.
Many would be interested in their answers.

PhilX
 

shemozzle999

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2009
2,826
686
Although not knowledgeable Philx that is what I intend to do, but first I am trying to establish the facts regarding the blind eye policy, waiver, informal waiver or whatever it will be called next. I have a brief extract from BEBA of what I assume is text from the DfT apparently agreed in April 2013 by persons unknown , which was after the published findings of the consultation in 2012.

I have not been convinced by the statement made here that users are totally protected from prosecution and despite requesting guarantees that all users will be protected none have been given.
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Clearly, after four dozen posts in this thread, there is a degree of concern among some about the legality of 250w EAPCs and their potential for expensive litigation and conviction in court for perhaps several RTA offences.

Will those concerned individuals now desist from riding such machines pending clarification?

Tom
 

PhilX

Pedelecer
Nov 8, 2012
40
2
Seaford East Sussex
For what it's worth I've concluded that it's an informal waver.
I'm sure if it was cast in stone all retailers/ those connected with the trade would be shouting it from the roof tops and putting the flags out.
I don't see that.

With Rt Hon law makers putting it on paper that they accept its a confusing situation, one that certainly needs clarifying (no hurry it seems) plus we have the law keepers using them for community policing to me it would be hard to prosecute me for the offence of riding a 250wt pedelec.
Riding a more powerful model could well be a different matter.
Needs a volunteer to get nicked doesn't it?
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
...plus we have the law keepers using them for community policing to me it would be hard to prosecute me for the offence of riding a 250wt pedelec.
It would be the same if you were riding a 500w bike. The charges would relate to using a bike over 200w, so all rider would need to do is point to the Sussex police (for example), and say, "In that case I'm reporting them, please prosecute them too".

Maybe this is why they don't check. The only thing the police can get them for is offences relating to the manner of their riding.
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
no, it wouldn't be the same. 500W is totally illegal.
250W is not legal but not illegal.
I'd like all the suppliers of BPM bikes and Cyclotricity to think hard about their responsibility.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
Extract from a BEBA member user manual of an EN15194 approved 250W rated bicycle:

"There is a twist throttle provided on the right handlebar grip.
There is a red button by the throttle which, when pushed in, activates the throttle. Ensure that it is only pushed in when the throttle needs to be activated.
To use the throttle start pedalling as normal and once you have reached the speed you wish to travel at then twist the throttle.
After the throttle is used you can stop pedaling and the motor speed will be maintained.
Obviously, if the bicycle is used under throttle only without pedal assistance then the range will be substantially reduced."

Is the user covered by the waiver?
Yes. The UK's EAPC law includes throttle independent control and always has done. The waiver is additional and quite specific as you've seen, it concerns only the permission to have 250 watts power rating. It also stresses that the use of an "off-road" button is definitely not permitted, that expression "off-road" understood to be an additional speed control.

I really don't understand all this silly fuss. Over the years the DfT have stated their intention to adopt 250 watts to harmonise with the EU, the first occasion when I remember them doing that was online in 2005.

Following the acceptance of the EU type approval law in 2003 which exempted 250 watt pedelecs from type approval law as motor vehicles, e-bike manufacturers and importers openly supplied 250 watt rated machines, the DfT always knowing this.

When the status was queried at various times, the DfT statement was always that they would not rule, a case was needed for the courts to give a ruling. Finally the police attempt to bring a case that I mentioned gave that opportunity for the DfT wish to be granted just over a year ago, but as you now know, they blocked that instead. That was because they recognised and acknowledged that the situation was no longer reversible, 250 watts was the de facto standard, regardless of what any court decided.

Since they had accepted the principle of 250 watts, it's acceptance into law was publically stated official policy, and the position on the roads was beyond correction, there was no longer any point in getting the opinion of the judiciary. They had after all held a lengthy public consultation with interested parties, including all members of this forum, on what the provisions of the new 250 watt law should be when it was adopted. Therefore, using the material from that consultation a meeting was convened with the major interested parties at which the waiver for 250 watts was agreed to cover users until the law revision. The only other possible concession at the meeting was that they would consider whether to continue with independent throttle control in the law revision, following the high demand for that facility.

There are reasons why the new law is not yet in place. At the time of the foregoing the EU's own law was in a state of flux, since there were new powered two wheeler classes being introduced and some changes had been made in Germany's S class. In addition the EU parliament had made a recommendation that the pedelec power limit be removed altogether, control being by the 25 kph assist speed limit plus a maximum weight limit. Therefore the DfT were unable to proceed with harmonisation until they knew what they were going to harmonise with.

They have since given a target of 2016 for the introduction of the EU style new UK law, dispensing with the need for the waiver.

Meanwhile internationally respected companies like Bosch, Panasonic and Yamaha continue to supply 250 watt machines to the UK market, knowing that they are immune from any incidental liability due to the additional 50 watt rating, and a number of police forces use 250 watt e-bikes, recognising that they cannot be prosecuted for that. They after all have been in receipt of the DfT direction not to prosecute 250 watt usage! I see no possible justification to question the status of 250 watt e-bikes any more.
.
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
It would be the same if you were riding a 500w bike. The charges would relate to using a bike over 200w
Once again you attempt to ameliorate your own criminality by encompassing all EAPCs over 200w in one great illegal basket.

Those who ride 250w bikes have many defences they can rely on in court should they ever face prosecution for non-adherence to the UK law, not least of which is the police issue we have known about for some time.

On the other hand, although I'm not a lawyer, unlike so many others here judging by the authority with which some express legal opinion, those who choose to ride 500w machines simply would not have a leg to stand on. The various defences which would be applied to 250w EAPCs would be entirely inapplicable on those 500w motor vehicles.

I can understand that you would like to mitigate the seriousness of your law-breaking but your childish outpourings such as, "Well, they're all guilty too cos they ride 250w EAPCs!" really won't wash in any court. Unlike you, most of us don't exhort others to ignore the law by flagrantly fitting non-compliant power systems or adjusting systems to operate outside legal parameters.

Most of us develop a greater sense of responsibility with age but I think you see yourself as some devilish rebel and people's champion for the cause of riding mopeds without authority.....whatever motivates you, don't you think it's time you grew up and showed some real responsibility?

Tom
 

PhilX

Pedelecer
Nov 8, 2012
40
2
Seaford East Sussex
It would be the same if you were riding a 500w bike. The charges would relate to using a bike over 200w, so all rider would need to do is point to the Sussex police (for example), and say, "In that case I'm reporting them, please prosecute them too".

Maybe this is why they don't check. The only thing the police can get them for is offences relating to the manner of their riding.
It would be the same if you were riding a 500w bike. The charges would relate to using a bike over 200w, so all rider would need to do is point to the Sussex police (for example), and say, "In that case I'm reporting them, please prosecute them too".

Maybe this is why they don't check. The only thing the police can get them for is offences relating to the manner of their riding.
My argument would be if it's ok for the police to use a 250wt motor unencumbered (my understanding being that no special provisions had been made for them) then it should be ok for me to do the same.

If I'm using a 500wt motor which would be encumbered in the EU I would reasonably expect it to remain encumbered in the UK given that we are working towards adopting the EU standards which have decided that 250wts is the safe power limit.

Phil
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
If I'm using a 500wt motor which would be encumbered in the EU I would reasonably expect it to remain encumbered in the UK given that we are working towards adopting the EU standards which have decided that 250wts is the safe power limit.

Phil
Yes, the DfT have made clear their implacable opposition to having over 250 watts in the legal pedelec class. 250 watts is their final limit for unregistered two wheelers.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
I have not been convinced by the statement made here that users are totally protected from prosecution and despite requesting guarantees that all users will be protected none have been given.
In theory you will not be protected from prosecution for having a 250 watt rated machine until the law is changed, so neither I nor anyone else will give such a guarantee that you are totally protected. But I'm prepared to state that such a prosecution being brought is highly unlikely, and that a conviction will not happen if the person being prosecuted notifies the DfT, either directly or through BEBA.

Efforts to obtain further clarity are utterly pointless anyway, since all e-bikes on UK roads are illegal, even when 200 watts or less. Virtually all always have been, so prosecution has always been possible in areas not covered by any waiver.
.
 
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D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
Once again you attempt to ameliorate your own criminality by encompassing all EAPCs over 200w in one great illegal basket.

Those who ride 250w bikes have many defences they can rely on in court should they ever face prosecution for non-adherence to the UK law, not least of which is the police issue we have known about for some time.

On the other hand, although I'm not a lawyer, unlike so many others here judging by the authority with which some express legal opinion, those who choose to ride 500w machines simply would not have a leg to stand on. The various defences which would be applied to 250w EAPCs would be entirely inapplicable on those 500w motor vehicles.

I can understand that you would like to mitigate the seriousness of your law-breaking but your childish outpourings such as, "Well, they're all guilty too cos they ride 250w EAPCs!" really won't wash in any court. Unlike you, most of us don't exhort others to ignore the law by flagrantly fitting non-compliant power systems or adjusting systems to operate outside legal parameters.

Most of us develop a greater sense of responsibility with age but I think you see yourself as some devilish rebel and people's champion for the cause of riding mopeds without authority.....whatever motivates you, don't you think it's time you grew up and showed some real responsibility?

Tom
You're completely wrong on just about every point.
 
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tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
3,197
You're completely wrong on just about every point.
You don't explain why Tom is completely wrong on just about every point, and this because you have no explanation. His words sum you up nicely.
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
You don't explain why Tom is completely wrong on just about every point, and this because you have no explanation. His words sum you up nicely.
I'm sure most people that read what's written will figure it out. I took you for an intelligent person. I thought you of all people would see it. Maybe you'd like to explain it on my behalf.

Some people come on this forum to try and help others, by posting useful information. Some people come on the forum just to try and knock people down, normally by spouting **. As far as I'm concerned, Oldtom is one of them. I liken him to a parasite. Nothing of any good has come out of what he's written, and I, like many others I guess, wish he'd crawl back in to his hole and stay there.
 
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