Speeding... Guardian article

shemozzle999

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2009
2,826
686
Obviously some crossed wires in the DfT. Whoever gave him that information was obviously not aware of this from the DfT:

Summary of Government response to consultation

2.The Department for Transport has considered the responses to this consultation and supports recommendations to harmonise power limits (from 200 Watts to 250 Watts) with similar provisions in place across Europe. This will provide consumers with access to a wider range of electrically assisted cycles.

Extracts from intentions:

The DfT and Police are aware that electric bikes currently sold and used in the UK are fitted with 250W motors, they do not intend to become involved in prosecuting those that sell or ride them. The use of an "Off Road Button" however is strictly forbidden now and is specifically mentioned in documents appertaining to new and existing guidelines.

"Grandfather rights" will apply to all bikes sold before the new regulations come into force. So any changes will not be retrospective.

This was the conclusion of a meeting with many interested parties including BEBA, other trade interests and the police. This has been published in this forum several times not only by myself but also by BEBA and all BEBA main members are aware of it.

It's not unusual for ministers or even the odd prime minister to be accidentally misled on a variety of subjects as you may have read from time to time. Personally they are the last persons I'd ask about any legal technical matter. The civil servant who Norman asked has probably simply looked up the law and not consulted the DfT person specifically charged with e-bike matters. Yes, there is such a person, but it's only a part of their duties.
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This letter does not appear anywhere on the governments advice website or in the public domain so I as a rider feel I have no protection from the law.

Should it not be publicly published thus giving reassurance to riders?

Without it I have no confidence in my protection from the existing law.

Does anyone know where I can apply or from who I can obtain an official copy?

Armed with a copy I could then inquire whether or not it would would stand up if a private prosecution should ever be placed before the CPS.
 
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PhilX

Pedelecer
Nov 8, 2012
40
2
Seaford East Sussex
Hi Flecc,

Thank you for your reply it is appreciated.

A major problem is that as far as I can see is the document which contains the waiver is unavailable to Joe Public.

On a simple level if I Google “250wt electric bicycle waiver” or similar I would expect to see a document or a news item or an article from a major electric bike manufacturer/ supplier/ rejoicing in the event.
It must be a pivotal event in future well being of the electric bike industry.

Truth be that Google returns this forum.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=250wt+electric+bicycle+waiver

As a normal bloke uncertainty now exists as to the validity of the waiver especially if it’s weighed against two letters from the Rt Hon, for these letters are tangible.

Why doesn’t BEBA have this document plastered over the front of its web site instead of this:

http://www.beba.info/article/electric-bicycles-law

Very informative but not exactly definitive when you find the usual attempt at a disclaimer at the foot of the page.

It's in everyone's best interest that a consumer should be able to purchase a pedelec (often costing several £1000’s) with a lot more clarity of the law than at present.

Phil
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
It's in everyone's best interest that a consumer should be able to purchase a pedelec (often costing several £1000’s) with a lot more clarity of the law than at present.Phil
While I understand the point you labour Phil, the reality is that the whole matter is unclear and needs to be addressed by legislators.

As you understand that, perhaps your best course of action would be to refrain from riding EAPCs until such legislation is in place which might allay your concerns.

Tom
 

PhilX

Pedelecer
Nov 8, 2012
40
2
Seaford East Sussex
While I understand the point you labour Phil, the reality is that the whole matter is unclear and needs to be addressed by legislators.

As you understand that, perhaps your best course of action would be to refrain from riding EAPCs until such legislation is in place which might allay your concerns.

Tom
Hi Tom,
I am very pro pedelecs for all the reasons that are often written about. Its why I bother to ask questions and give opinion to those with influence.
Perhaps more voicing opinion in that manner would be no bad thing?
Speed up the process may be?
Express to a minister that you aren't too happy that he admits it's a grey area?
Better than doing begger all? ??
?

As you suggest there is no compunction to ride a pedelec it is a personal choice and I have put my money where my mouth is and made that choice.
However that doesn't distract from the need of legal clarification which can only be in everyone's best interest.

Phil
 

PhilX

Pedelecer
Nov 8, 2012
40
2
Seaford East Sussex
Have you forwarded the correspondence to Halford's head office for their comments?
No.

The reply I received was precise is saying that as far as the D of T were concern Halfords were not committing an offence.
The electric bikes that they were selling could be used on the roads subject to conditions.
However, the conditions were not listed in fact the impression given was if you had the cash and were over 14 years old you could ride it away.

I put this point to the Rt Hon as I found it disingenuous given the D of T's official stance.

This return the below reply.
I do appreciate that this could do with a little more clarity and that is why we are working to harmonise our provisions.

So that's all right then.
Phil

 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
Thank you for posting this link dmsims, very helpful.

Personally I was entirely happy with the original assurances, in part because I played a part with BEBA in the steps which prevented the police prosecution, an action leading to this measure, so I knew the police were blocked from action.

Just seen Shemozzle999's post above. The document is the second part of what I posted, part of the conclusions of that meeting headed "Extracts of Intentions". Presumably that is recorded somewhere but I'm not concerned enough about my own status on a 250 watt machine to worry where.
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dmsims

Pedelecer
Mar 10, 2010
67
14
South Devon
Given the current state of "the law" and the published intent I cannot foresee a prosecution for 250W

When was the last time a police patrol prosecuted for 80mph on the motorway?
 

shemozzle999

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2009
2,826
686
Thank you for posting this link dmsims, very helpful.

Personally I was entirely happy with the original assurances, in part because I played a part with BEBA in the steps which prevented the police prosecution, an action leading to this measure, so I knew the police were blocked from action.

Just seen Shemozzle999's post above. The document is the second part of what I posted, part of the conclusions of that meeting headed "Extracts of Intentions". Presumably that is recorded somewhere but I'm not concerned enough about my own status on a 250 watt machine to worry where.
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Therefore it can not be challenged!:rolleyes: conveniently.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
Further to my above post, the notion that some have expressed that a private prosecution might be brought is frankly silly. The CPS would follow official policy, and that is clearly for harmonisation at 250 watts with no contrary action meanwhile. Those seeing problems in the current status are simply failing to realise that as a matter of principle, anyone representing government cannot say the law is wrong.

Such waivers are not unusual and they have existed previously in many areas, including our own. An example is the Countryside Act 1968.

Legislation concerning bicycles usually includes the wording "bicycles, tricycles and bicycles with four or more wheels", but the permission to use bridlepaths included in that countryside act only included bicycles.

Following representations from tricyclists, Sustrans, the government backed sustainable transport organisation, successfully sought a waiver from the DfT for tricycles to be permitted, and that was the informal status for long afterwards.

It may still be, but that act has had many amendments since so the change may have subsequently been written into law, as this waiver will be in due course.

This really is a silly fuss about nothing. Anyone remember the very many years that London taxicab drivers were required by the Hackney Carriage acts to carry a bale of hay on board for their hypothetical horse's welfare? That law was only rescinded quite recently and no-one using an ic cab had ever been prosecuted over that century of the measure being in force. Also I believe it's still an imprisonable offence for a woman to wear make-up, it certainly was a long way into my lifetime.
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shemozzle999

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2009
2,826
686
A private prosecution as far as I am aware is a legal option for bringing a case to court are you saying that the waiver can also be guaranteed to stop it in all circumstances and what legal capacity do you hold to make this judgement.
 

PhilX

Pedelecer
Nov 8, 2012
40
2
Seaford East Sussex
Hi flecc,
I can understand that from your point of view it's a silly fuss. You are clearly in the know about a meeting BEBA had and what resolved from that meeting.
You are fortunate.

Accept that the majority of us were not at that meeting, are not in the know and remain in the fog.
I really appreciate what you contribute, you are a great source of information but amid so much confusion to say there has been a waiver without putting some meat on the bone doesn't lift the fog.

Should this forum disappear and you along with it no one would know about a waiver.
Phil
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
Phil, the best guarantee is the embarrassing position the DfT is in, one I exploited to assist in preventing the potential prosecution I mentioned previously.

This is it:

The EAPC law states that anything over 200 watts means the e-bike is a motor vehicle which must be type approved for registration, and in law the relevant DfT department and the Home Office have to agree with that.

However, we have adopted in law the EU two and three wheeler type approval legislation 2002/EC/24, and in section 1.1.(h) that specifically excludes pedelecs of 250 watts or less from needing type approval.

The Vehicle Inspectorate is the DfT department charged with administering that type approval so there's an impasse, two sections of the DfT operating to totally opposing but entirely legal positions.

That has been the case since 10th November, 2003, and it came about because of a failure to complete the actions required by an accompanying document when the EU order arrived with the DfT on 9th May 2003. That document required the removal of all conflicting legislation by the 10th November 2003, clearly not done.

As I thought when advising BEBA, that was sufficient for the DfT to prevent a prosecution and avoid the embarrassment and confusion that would be incurred.
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JohnCade

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 16, 2014
1,486
736
I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

What with government agencies watching our every move and monitoring us online. The chances of a bureaucratic mistake of the Tuttle to Buttle variety resulting in a fully military kitted out squad of plod kicking my door in and hauling me off to be interrogated under some obscure anti terror law seems much more likely than a prosecution over this.
 

shemozzle999

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2009
2,826
686
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
It appears from the end of this old post that only BEBA is privy to the content of this "waiver" whether given verbally or written it is unlikely we should ever get to know.

http://pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/justin-beba-or-just-out-of-beba.16823/#post-207168

So the doubt remains.

If not watertight this "waiver" could effect the outcome of a prosecution dramatically:

http://ukcyclerules.com/2012/11/21/serious-injury-dangerous-driving/
Not so, have you even read my previous post? The doubt exists only in the imagination. The type approval law excludes 250 watt pedelecs from being considered as motor vehicles. That is the most recent UK law on the subject. Add to that the clear official statements of government policy and intentions regarding 250 watts for pedelecs and the knowledge of or production of the waiver is scarcely necessary.

Have you even considered the fact that a variety of UK police forces have used and in some cases still use 250 watt e-bikes?

This is a non-subject.
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