Should it be legal....?

[indalo]

Just to re-itterate what flecc has already said. This is an eBike community. I have not looked at the thread about your build, but from what you say, I suspect that you have built yourself a mechanically propelled vehicle. Be very clear, that is not an eBike and has nothing to do with the spirit of this forum. Your bike enjoys none of the easements in law to which a legal eBike is entitled and belongs somewhere else and not here on this forum.

All of this off road nonesense fools no one. It is merely a cloak of deception which the illegal eBike users rely on to go about their activities unhindered. What they are actually doing is abusing the reputation of the legal eBike owners.

What the illegal owners want is motorbike / moped performance. But they don't want to pay for it and they don't want all of the legislation and compliance that comes with it. So in order to cherry pick the nice bits and to avoid the unwelcome aspects, they operate by decept pretending to be ordinary law abiding eBike owners.

I have no objection to more power and I can see how it will help some people. But, as things stand we can't have it. Maybe things will change in the future, but operating illegally isn't going to help the case.

You have described the situation beautifully Tillson and that's why I have captured it in quotes as it's worth seeing twice!

Indalo

 

[amigafan2003]

My gripe is that, as things stand, people are creating illegal ebikes, some bragging about it in this forum.....and it seems, breaking the law with impunity. That can't be right.

Indalo

Not wanting to put too fine a point on it but you can bugger off.

My bike does 21mph unassisted on a thumb throttle and draws 750 watts - it's illegal - let someone involved in law enforcement pull me up on it, not forum do gooders. I know I brake the law every time I go out on it, but I do the same every time I go out in the Westfield and I'll deal with the consequences in my own way.

The law is an ass especially regards ebikes and it's the responsibility of every resident of this country (I won't say citizen as you don't have citizens in a constitutional monarchy) to challenge ludicrous laws when they come across them.

 

[wurly]

But people do have objection Flecc and they, as always seems to invoke all sorts of critisms and accusations. Such are forums, it happens on others too.
I really wished i had not posted the build. Normally i don't have the time, but for other reasons i was in a position too, and foolishly i thought people were interested.
Can my build thread be deleted by a moderator please?

 

[flecc]

it's the responsibility of every resident of this country (I won't say citizen as you don't have citizens in a constitutional monarchy) to challenge ludicrous laws when they come across them.

The problem is that every law is ludicrous to someone, so your stance means the end to law.

 

[amigafan2003]

The problem is that every law is ludicrous to someone, so your stance means the end to law.

You say that as it's a bad thing?

Return it to a natural moral code as it once was and I'll be much happier

 

[Scottyf]

I don't think the law is ridiculous. It just didn't quite suit me. I also upgraded brake parts as soon as my average speed went up a little.

Common sense shall prevail.

 

[morphix]

Not wanting to put too fine a point on it but you can bugger off.

My bike does 21mph unassisted on a thumb throttle and draws 750 watts - it's illegal - let someone involved in law enforcement pull me up on it, not forum do gooders. I know I brake the law every time I go out on it, but I do the same every time I go out in the Westfield and I'll deal with the consequences in my own way.

The law is an ass especially regards ebikes and it's the responsibility of every resident of this country (I won't say citizen as you don't have citizens in a constitutional monarchy) to challenge ludicrous laws when they come across them.

Although strictly speaking the letter of the law is to be followed, how far the e-bike law is likely to be enforced (and can be enforced) is a matter of debate. Many take the view the police have little to no interest in stopping e-bikes and checking them over. And how would they even know if its legal or not by just looking..presumably if they suspect its going too fast and might be illegal, they can seize it and then take to station for speed testing with a speed gun? But that seems very unlikely situation to come up unless someone is involved in an accident or being an idiot and showing off. If that did happen though, I think your bike gets automatically destroyed.

So you could take the view the law is more of a guideline where e-bikes are concerned and we enjoy this relaxed approach, but if you abuse it and act irresponsibly, the law will be applied against you.

 

[flecc]

But people do have objection Flecc and they, as always seems to invoke all sorts of critisms and accusations. Such are forums, it happens on others too.
I really wished i had not posted the build. Normally i don't have the time, but for other reasons i was in a position too, and foolishly i thought people were interested.
Can my build thread be deleted by a moderator please?

I was happy to see your post Mel, don't want to see it deleted and I really hope you don't leave the forum. My only concern is that we keep the legal position completely clear to anyone coming into the forum since it woud be bad for us to be thought to be promoting illegality.

 

[Scottyf]

I really wished i had not posted the build. Normally i don't have the time, but for other reasons i was in a position too, and foolishly i thought people were interested.
Can my build thread be deleted by a moderator please?

Don't have it deleted. It was useful and showed some decent engineering skill which can only be more useful to builds going forward. I loved the interesting take on torque arms I think you'd be an asset on the forum just like I value other members views, opinions and advice.

 

[morphix]

Don't have it deleted. It was useful and showed some decent engineering skill which can only be more useful to builds going forward. I loved the interesting take on torque arms I think you'd be an asset on the forum just like I value other members views, opinions and advice.

I'd like to see it before its deleted, I love seeing new builds.

 

[flecc]

You say that as it's a bad thing?

Return it to a natural moral code as it once was and I'll be much happier

I have some sympathy with this position and have always had a sneaky liking for the attitudes in Italy. Have all the laws, just don't take any notice of them! Berlusconi was their ideal leader.

Trouble is that most of the British don't accept that attitude, we tend to be rather legalistic.

 

[morphix]

You say that as it's a bad thing?

Return it to a natural moral code as it once was and I'll be much happier

amigafan you're a proponent of growing "common law, freeman on the land" stance I take it?

I too like flecc have sympathy with this kind of approach he mentioned..i.e. have the laws, but just ignore them (acting responsibly) but if you end up in bother with the law you face the consequences of your actions.

 

[wurly]

Right. Sorry for my outburst earlier on ( but you did ask for it Indalo :0) This topic will always be a bone of contention and people will strongly disagree and agree. I have asked my build thread to be deleted. I am sorry for the arguments it has caused, it certainly was not my intention. I will slowly slide away into the distance..................but not go away completely......ssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Yawn, Yawn........ Same old people saying the same old things, which have been said many times before. Nothing new. Hopefully, the law will change soon to make many more legal. And I don't know why pick on Frank: There's loads of manufacturers that sell bikes with speed limit wires that can be unwired - probably more so than not.
Wurly. keep up the good work. There's probably loads of people following your thread to learn how to do it themselves even though they never post on the forum.
Until now, nobody has found any occurrence of anyone getting a ticket for an illegal ebike in UK other than a guy that was caught drunk on three occasions and even then he was let off twice, and a guy riding his Segway on the pavement. The same is reported from the ES forum regarding USA - no tickets!

 

[lemmy]

Having spent a good bit of time in Italy, especially working there, I do not think many English would be very happy with the way the law is applied there. For so many English Italy is a place of wine and happy go lucky people. It is not any more than this is a country of rosy cheeked children and friendly bobbies.

It's funny how complacent we get. Because we have law and it is mostly applied reasonably we don't value it. Much the same applies here with education. Go to some of these wonderful countries and you will see that while they do not apply the laws you don't agree with, they don't apply the ones you do agree with as well.

Having been in countries and cities where the law exists but is ignored, Kinshasa being a good example, I can promise you that we soft English folk would find it somewhat uncomfortable.

I accept that dealers are happy to sell e-bikes they know will be used illegally and that many people are more than happy to ride uninsured motor vehicles, electric or otherwise.

I just wish they would pursue their fantasies somewhere else or at the very least not treat the law as if it doesn't exist while on this forum. Even if I don't agree with a law I am not arrogant enough to believe that it does not apply to me.

 

[flecc]

Right. Sorry for my outburst earlier on ( but you did ask for it Indalo :0) This topic will always be a bone of contention and people will strongly disagree and agree. I have asked my build thread to be deleted. I am sorry for the arguments it has caused, it certainly was not my intention. I will slowly slide away into the distance..................but not go away completely......ssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Glad you aren't going Wurly, I don't think your post was specifically a target anyway. Sorry about my full inbox, I've cleared it now.

 

[flecc]

Having spent a good bit of time in Italy, especially working there, I do not think many English would be very happy with the way the law is applied there.

Depends where in Italy, the law is indeed applied variably there, but that's just as true in Britain where local Chief Constables exercise the particular bee in their bonnet.

But Italy is very different, just one example, how many moped/scooter riders do you see riding without helmets in Britain? In Italy that's commonplace.

 

[catsnapper]

Alan

 

[cwah]

I agree with Morphix, law should be more of a guideline rather than just apply it because it's the law. Do you never break the law? Have you ever crossed the road outside zebra crossing?

It's like the car analogy. The car doesn't have a speed restriction by itself, and although in city you are not allowed to go over 30 mph, car can go way beyond that.

It's up to the driver to respect that and not the car itself. The car (as well as the bike) is only a tool. At the end of the day, if the car or bike driver is irresponsible, he'll have an accident whether he has speed restriction or not.

Accident is not due to speed only, and irresponsible (non electric) cyclists will have accident because they don't respect the road sign. So focusing only on speed is misleading.

 

[DJH]

I fear that if the law is treated in a cavalier fashion it could well bite back and we end up finding ourselves in a more restrictive situation. I must admit I was surprised when I came to this forum and found people openly talking about flouting the law. I've seen it happen in other spheres and I wouldn't like to see licensing / helmets etc introduced for all electric bikes.