Seeking clarity on the law

[flecc]

Further to KudosDave's post, there's an extract of the main state differences in American e-bike law in this post of mine
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[Kinninvie]

I have friends with e-bikes in New York State so lnow exactly what a ridiculous situation they are in.
Some police clamp down hard on them and others dont bat an eyelid but until you get stopped you dont know which way its going to go.
Perhaps we should have a horsepower limit over here instead,after all 1 horsepower sounds a lot more acceptable than 750 Watts and nobody (much) complains that a horse is too powerful to ride on a public highway!!!

I do think a 20Mph limit is plenty for an e-bike though.
EDIT- And make that 10 mph on shared paths.

 

[Kinninvie]

You need to bear in mind how much current your battery can give. I think it's already pressed to its limit, so soldering the shunt in your Dillenger controller might not be a good idea.

Torque also increases when you over-volt, but this pushes the efficiency curve up to higher speeds too, i.e. not so efficient when going slowly up hills, so you can get over-heating.

Overall, it would be much better to change to a geared motor.

Should have pointed out that the current battery will be up for sale shortly and the hub will be run on LiPo,lots of LiPo...This hub motor isnt going to be used up big hills but mainly for trips to various pubs around the dale where a BBS is not suitable as I may be too drunk to change gear efficiently.

 

[Kinninvie]

Further to KudosDave's post, there's an extract of the main state differences in American e-bike law in this post of mine
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If the first thing I read upon finding this site was the replies to your posting(obviously not connected to your excellent first post) then I would never of returned.
Thank god people seem to have grown up since then.

 

[flecc]

Yes Kinninivie, it really is a mind boggling thread if read right through. Two of those contributing have since been permanently banned from membership of the pedelecs site following further problems of a similar nature.

I always find it sad when people cannot politely disagree, preferring to become abusive instead of respecting another's right to an opinion.
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[Kudoscycles]

They should copy the Yanks and set the limit at 750 Watts.
My 250 Watt Cyclamatic Power Plus (I think the plus means plus we just lied about the power) wont pull me up any of the hills around here even with me pedalling as hard as I can!
Mind you my Kilowatt Dillenger wont pull me up the steepest ones here either.
As for the 250 Watt scoooter,it wont even pull me on the level iof the winds blowing the wrong way.

Kinninvie....please do try a BPM motored hub drive bike,you may be pleasantly surprised as to the low speed torque that these motors offer,I am trying to use this motor on every Kudos bike,whether it is a commuter bike or mountain climber. It is the most cost effective legal means of providing the right amount of hill climbing power at the speed most of us require it.
KudosDave

 

[Kinninvie]

This has been suggested a few times Dave and I will get round to it eventually but at the moment I can only work with what I have as I am a full time carer for my 2 disabled sons so money is tight.
I will eventually get the Dillenger sold(when I have finished playing with it) and may buy one next.
There is only one bike shop round here and they only sell one generic chinese e-bike(dont know what it is yet) and to be honest no one round here had heard of an e-bike till they saw mine and some folk still dont believe it.
When I park it outside the pub everybody stops and looks at it when walking past and I mean everybody,even the 80 year old grannies out walking the dogs stop and give it the once over.

 

[jonathan75]

The Ebike regs upped to 250w in UK, 15.5mph, to harmonise with EU, the law comes into force on 6 April 2015, here it is: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/24/regulation/2/made

Interesting definition of “maximum continuous rated power” at note 3 at the bottom. Can't quite get my head around what it means.

 

[D8ve]

The Ebike regs upped to 250w in UK, 15.5mph, to harmonise with EU, the law comes into force on 6 April 2015, here it is: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/24/regulation/2/made

Interesting definition of “maximum continuous rated power” at note 3 at the bottom. Can't quite get my head around what it means.

It's fudge wording. In practice it means a manufacture has put a 250w lable on the motor.
But there is an official test method ie eu reg 168/2013,uneven reg no 85 if you want to go further.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Fortunately, all the tests for assessing the maximum continuous rated power are to stop people from overrating their motors, which can result in a fire. There doesn't seem to be anything to stop them underrating them.

We can all ride our bikes now (in a few months) without worrying about insurance claims and private prosecutions. The only problem is that all those holier than thous that have been riding illegal 250w bikes will now get back on their high horses and lambast those that choose to push the limits further.

 

[flecc]

Making this change by amendment instead of the original intention of a new EU type harmonisation law has neatly sidestepped the independent throttle issue.

Alone in Europe, we still have them, yippee!

Nice one DfT.
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[trex]

triumph of common sense. Will we have to comply with all of EU reg 168/2013? it's a 77 page PDF.

 

[flecc]

triumph of common sense. Will we have to comply with all of EU reg 168/2013? it's a 77 page PDF.

Unlikely, that regulation incorporates the 2002/24/EC Type Approval Regulation as part of keeping things current*. In that document section 1, subsection 1.h. exempts pedelecs meeting the EU pedelec law from being motor vehicles and all the rest is about two and three wheel motor vehicles.

There is one flaw of course, our 1983 law plus the 2015 amendment still allows independent throttles so we don't quite comply with that exemption. Will someone look? I doubt it.

* For reference, if one scrolls down to number 28 in 168/2013, the first item repealed in favour of the new document is 2002/24/EC.
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[JohnCade]

Fortunately, all the tests for assessing the maximum continuous rated power are to stop people from overrating their motors, which can result in a fire. There doesn't seem to be anything to stop them underrating them.

We can all ride our bikes now (in a few months) without worrying about insurance claims and private prosecutions. The only problem is that all those holier than thous that have been riding illegal 250w bikes will now get back on their high horses and lambast those that choose to push the limits further.

Actually it's been pointed out by some here including me I must confess, that with clarity the law might start to be enforced. As it is it's a minefield that the police would rather not get into. Particularly since a police force which was keen to prosecute under the current law was stopped and effectively told that it wasn't in the public interest. But now if Dibble sees someone moving right along with little apparent effort on something that looks like it was a prop from Star Wars he might just do something about it.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

You're right. I suspect that there might be a bit of tightening up . Some electric bikes I've seen will be fair game. I'. thinking more about those with 250w bikes who release the speed limit. We've had a lot of hypocritical preachers on here that tell them that they're a blight on society for doing such illegal acts, while they themselves were riding illegal bikes. Since I pointed that out to them, they seem to have shut up, but I guess now they'll all be at it again.

 

[Kinninvie]

It amazes me the amount of people that ride e-bikes that look like offf road motorcycles using moped rims and chunky tyres.
How they dont get pulled on a regular basis I dont know,especially those that dont wear a helmet.

 

[EddiePJ]

I sometimes see a lad riding a Stealth Bomber, which he uses to commute on. Being fair to him, I've yet to see him riding at a speed that would attract any attention, and never seen him not pedalling. It's certainly a very odd choice of bike given his riding style and complete lack of speed.

I can't say that I'd have the same self discipline if it were me.

 

[mike killay]

My guess is that the old 200 watt law was not enforced because anybody convicted under it would appeal to Europe claiming that their bike met European Law and it was all the fault of HMG dragging their feet.
AND
Just why did they?

 

[RobF]

Y I'. thinking more about those with 250w bikes who release the speed limit. We've had a lot of hypocritical preachers on here that tell them that they're a blight on society for doing such illegal acts, while they themselves were riding illegal bikes. Since I pointed that out to them, they seem to have shut up, but I guess now they'll all be at it again.

So all those posters who were bleating about my dongle in a recent thread are breaking the same rules themselves.

Shocking.

And what of Col and his nice, shiny KTMs - surely they can't be illegal?

Reminds me of one of Fletcher's lines in Porridge: "At least there's a certain amount of honesty about our dishonesty."

 

[flecc]

My guess is that the old 200 watt law was not enforced because anybody convicted under it would appeal to Europe claiming that their bike met European Law and it was all the fault of HMG dragging their feet.
AND
Just why did they?

That isn't really the case since there was no compulsion to have the EU pedelec law. What did happen is that the EU's compulsory two and three wheeler motor vehicle type approval law contained a pedelec exemption from being a motor vehicle needing type approval. The snag in that was it's mention of under 250 watts, while our EAPC regulations said over 200 watts did need type approval.

That left a legal confllict from 10th November 2003 onwards, but there was still nothing stop a prosecution of an over 200 watt e-bike and a certain conviction. However, e-bikes were rare enough then for it not to crop up, and it was only with the recent huge growth in Greater London and surrounds cycling, including e-bikes, that police awareness did lead to a prosecution attempt following an accident. The intervention of BEBA with some external help was successful in getting the DfT to stop that.

As a direct result the DfT had their 2013 meeting with BEBA and interested parties at which the police were instructed not to prosecute since the EU law was intended to be adopted when time allowed. It was these events that made the DfT realise that the harmonisation issue had to be dealt with.

Of course the DfT should have dealt with the legal conflict long ago, but like all government departments in recent times they were always buried by the sheer quantity of legislation that flows through now. So with cycling being a very minor issue until recently, and e-bike issues even more so, that went on the back burner to be dealt with "later".

To add some perspective, for years e-bike issues were a minor part of just one DfT civil servant's total duties, and when he was promoted to another post that minor duty wasn't passed to anyone else so we had no contact at all for a long time.

Once again it was to BEBA's credit that a parliamentary lobbyist was obtained in the person of Lord Laird who asked questions in the House of Lords. At the same time in addition, BEBA had the odd e-bike event at the Houses of Parliament for members to try them out, so notice finally had to be taken of e-bike matters.

Thankfully it's all finally dealt with now.
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