S class bikes

[eddieo]

a question: These panasonic and bosch bikes, is it only top speed that improves with the 350 watt motors fitted on the S class bikes...I know they are not restricted to 15.5 mph, but what I basically want to know is, is the Nm figure the same in say a 250 watt and 350 watt Bosch motor?

 

[Storcker]

The amount of torque produced by an electric motor generally is determined by the electronic controller if one is fitted.
Maximum torque can be available at zero revolutions using electronics to enable machinery to start under full load which is a common requirement in industrial motors. Just consider the electric car, with no gearbox it needs to be capable of providing good acceleration from zero yet sustain high speed cruising.
I believe from what I have read is that many pedelec motors are sold rated as 250 watts "continuous" rating are capable of 350 watts output. The "continuous" is there to meet the EU regulations.
I would not be surprised if the 250 watt and 350 watt motors were identical with uprated controllers determining maximum continuous output.
We could do with more technical information from Ebike makers and suppliers but sadly as with most things we end up with more salesmen than engineers doing the talking.

 

[BAH48]

Bosch 250 W = 30-50 Nm
Bosch 350 W = 40-50 Nm

http://www.bosch-ebike.de/media/ebike/dokumente/Factsheet_ENG.pdf

 

[eddieo]

OK........Thanks chaps! So as I suspected no difference in torque. would destroy drive train otherwise I guess....Wonder how Hugh is getting on with his derestrict dongle

 

[BAH48]

"Wonder how Hugh is getting on with his derestrict dongle"

I wonder if it works with the 2013 models.

 

[SRS]

"Wonder how Hugh is getting on with his derestrict dongle"

I wonder if it works with the 2013 models.

Received my new KTM Macina 29 today. 1st pedelec that I have owned. Old bike is a throttle ebike which makes good progress.

Nice test run this evening, flat with no wind, into a howling wind and various hills.

Exceptional into the wind and up the hills. 15-16mph showing on speedo even on the steepest hills.

Was not overly impressed on the flat without a wind.

Even on the economy (lowest) setting, the drive kept switching off.
Bit of pedalling and soon over the 16mph.
How do you ride these on the flat, do you just switch off the motor off or accept that you must pedal gently and travel slowly?

Any advice welcome.

 

[eddieo]

that is the deal.... no hill insurmountable, and as this the main reason for an ebike, it is my preferred option. We visit many very hilly areas in Europe.... A hub bike faster on the flat but useless in comparison on the slopes. before any one says it, talking about legal or semi legal 250 watt bikes here. Reason why we have one of each

Im happy enough to plod along over the cut of....as I know the hills no threat, so no dread and that is whe ebiking is about I would think..anyway you have both like us so choose which bike for whatever occasion or dongle the KTM

 

[SRS]

Thanks, hills have never bothered me in the slightest, see them as a challenge.

What does bother me a lot are the fierce coastal winds in my face on my commuting trip. The primary reason
for going electric. Any bike that can do 15mph in these conditions when everybody else is doing 4 or 5mph is great.

I was just expecting the KTM to be of a weight that made going over 15, 16mph unassisted difficult. Having found that it is fairly easy, it would be nice for the motor to boost the pace and not cut out.

Think, I may investigate the dongle route in the future. I am giving the e-bike to my brother, the KTM will end up as my only electric option.

 

[BAH48]

I didn't like the cut off at about 15mph, it came in it bit too sharply. It's a pity it doesn't ramp down more gently, but that's the legal limit and one has to live with it - apart from the dongle of course.

 

[103Alex1]

I was just expecting the KTM to be of a weight that made going over 15, 16mph unassisted difficult. Having found that it is fairly easy, it would be nice for the motor to boost the pace and not cut out.

That's exactly the same feeling I had with my bike when I first started riding it ... and before I came to accept it as inevitable consequence of the speed restrict.

This is where a large gear range comes into its own - on the flat you can nudge them up and capitalize on the momentum that way once you sail through 16mph. I get a pretty gradual tail-off above 15mph so it makes the transition to unassisted gear-driven acceleration much smoother than a motor with a sharp 'tail' would allow.

It's still frustrating - the cut-out is right at the sweet spot where you want the boost for the last push to 20+ and almost right where continued power feels it would be most natural when your target speed is 20+. Having been lulled into an effortless rhythym, you often have to change it to reach the rest of the way to your goal.

On flatter stretches, if the bike delivers power effectively to let you get to cut-off quickly it does sometimes feel on a longer ride like you're not using it much at all - so you're riding a much heavier bike for the whole trip in exchange for assist for only short stretches of it when starting and getting up to speed after a stop.

The main benefit is steep sustained uphills when you are carrying stuff - saves having to stand on the pedals (!) - and for me at any rate at other times too if the bike is loaded with heavy cargo. At my size I'm not built to pedal 20-30 kg of cargo around on the back of a bike at any sensible speed, especially through endless sets of traffic lights. It does help having the power in strong headwinds to keep speed up too, though .

Riding my unpowered MTB with a light frame and no luggage recently really drove it home when and how much (or how little) assist you probably really need / use when you typically ride above 16mph. A load of the power delivered is simply driving the extra weight of the motor and battery. I've been riding the push-bike quite a bit more recently, before encumbering it with a motor and heavy battery for relocation it to the coastal Alps (with regular strong winds too) in its new guise as "workhorse" ! In some ways, a crying shame it's needed really ... but I'm sure it will still be great to ride.

 

[funkylyn]

Of course....if you had a Tonaro like lots of us do now, you could just remove the sensor from the back wheel and get a few more miles assisted before the power cuts off.

I too found the cut off at 15 infuriating, but that extra few miles without the sensor makes all the difference

Lynda

 

[eddieo]

I didn't like the cut off at about 15mph, it came in it bit too sharply. It's a pity it doesn't ramp down more gently, but that's the legal limit and one has to live with it - apart from the dongle of course.

On 2nd Bosch bike now. The first the cutout very noticeable the new one nowhere near as noticeable...much smoother, but agree a few more mph would be preferable

 

[Hugh]

OK........Thanks chaps! So as I suspected no difference in torque. would destroy drive train otherwise I guess....Wonder how Hugh is getting on with his derestrict dongle

Morning all. I thought I'd posted last night about this, but combination of wine and flu seems to have meant I failed

OK - I've only done about 30 miles with it so far, due to snow, being busy, and other such feeble excuses, but so far, so very good. It's taken me up a hill, that my Kalkhoff could only do at 8 mph, at 10-11 mph. On the flat, in tour mode, level 2, it assists easily beyond 20 mph. I changed the gearing before I got the dongle, from 38t to 42t front ring, which raises the gearing all round and makes it possible to pedal downhill at up to 30 mph or so without your legs falling off due to excess rpm!

The only hitch I've encountered was a weird cutting-out when on the 21t sprocket. This seems to be due to running the 42t chainring - there's something about the exact 2:1 ration that confuses it. Still, I can live with that, and I'm not yet sure how consistent it is anyway.

I'm very pleased so far, both with the Haibike itself, which is a very comfortable and smooth machine, and also with the results of the chainring and dongle mods. Both well worth it.

I'm going to attach below the blurb I did in an earlier thread about fitting the dongle, for what it's worth.

You can do it by connecting the dongle into the sensor cable where it emerges from the motor cover by the back wheel, but IMHO it a) exposes the dongle to all the crap thrown up by the back wheel and b) requires some fairly unsightly work with tape or something to hold it all in place.

I did mine by removing the motor cover and connecting to the sensor wire inside the cover. I then ran the dongle lead over the motor and allowed it to exit the cover through an existing gap on its upper part. I then drilled a couple of small holes in the cover and tied the dongle down to the top of it using cable ties, which means a) it's dead easy to unplug the dongle from its socket, and b) the whole thing is protected from flying mud etc by 2 frame tubes. I used some non-adhesive, self-sealing rubber tape (that's apparently used by phone engineers) to seal up the connections into the sensor wire, the holes I drilled in the cover, and to cover the dongle itself. It's actually quite unobtrusive because of being all black against the black cover.

It means you have to cut the cable ties if you want to remove the motor cover, but hey, into every life a little rain must fall

I tried to take some photos on my phone while doing it - they aren't much cop but I've attached them for what it's worth.



The tape is called Powerlink Plus high voltage self-fusing rubber tape, code no. SH50107SAT

 

[vectra]

Hi.
Congratulations on your purchase! Do you happen to know the weight ex' battery? I don't wish to get back into any discussion about whether or not weight matters but I do need to lift my e-bikes on and off my roof rack at times particularly when I have my caravan hitched up.

Many thanks.
Regards
vectra

 

[SRS]

Hi.
Congratulations on your purchase! Do you happen to know the weight ex' battery? I don't wish to get back into any discussion about whether or not weight matters but I do need to lift my e-bikes on and off my roof rack at times particularly when I have my caravan hitched up.

Many thanks.
Regards
vectra

Thanks, I believe the weight to be around 18.5 kg ex battery. I could lift on to a car easily but depends on your circumstances.

 

[Hugh]

Hi.
Congratulations on your purchase! Do you happen to know the weight ex' battery? I don't wish to get back into any discussion about whether or not weight matters but I do need to lift my e-bikes on and off my roof rack at times particularly when I have my caravan hitched up.

Many thanks.
Regards
vectra

Hi, I've just tried weighing it and myself on bathroom scales, as follows (bear in mind it's got clip-on mudguards, a small bell, pump and Brooks B17 saddle, all adding up to a bit)
Battery; 6.2 lbs or 2.80kg
Bike minus battery; 46 lbs or 20.7 kg

Liftable onto roof rack if you're feeling strong!

 

[103Alex1]

Of course....if you had a Tonaro like lots of us do now, you could just remove the sensor from the back wheel and get a few more miles assisted before the power cuts off.

I too found the cut off at 15 infuriating, but that extra few miles without the sensor makes all the difference

Lynda

Seatpost rack would barely take my chain let alone my shopping, and battery capacity has 1/3 of the "claimed range" that would be of interest. Functional suitability comes first on a first bike ..

 

[Old_Dave]

but I do need to lift my e-bikes on and off my roof rack at times particularly when I have my caravan hitched up.

Hmmmm

Let me see... roof rack caravan, roof rack caravan, roof rack caravan

Don't suppose the bike / bikes could go in the caravan

 

[vectra]

Hmmmm

Let me see... roof rack caravan, roof rack caravan, roof rack caravan

Don't suppose the bike / bikes could go in the caravan

Hmm. Yes.......I never thought of that. Then again, been there, done it and been completely cheesed off with manouvering two heavy..ish...bikes in and out of my caravn without damaging either/or.

Our bikes travel on our tow bar when we are without the caravan and on my roof bars when towing.

As I said. No wish to rekindle any discussion about whether or not weight matters. Clearly, for some, it does. For others it doesn't.
Regards
Vectra

 

[vectra]

Thanks, I believe the weight to be around 18.5 kg ex battery. I could lift on to a car easily but depends on your circumstances.

SRS.
Thank you.
Regards.
Vectra