Red Light Jumping - Crack Down

lemmy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Barring faulty equipment, even in "slow Suffolk" it usually takes less than a minute for traffic lights to change. Can people not even wait that long?
At a route I used to use often in my car, crossing the Thames from Castlenau to Hammersmith on Hammersmith Bridge, the lanes were changed onto the bridge, meaning that 2 lanes at the lights reduced to 2 immediately ahead.

For a while left and right lanes merging to one were fought over with anger and hand waving and push and shove.

A year later, right hand lane went first, then left, then right and so on - an orderly merging that subverted all the anger and jostling. I go to a car boot on the A3 sometimes where the exit is a nightmare. For a few months it was push and shove. Now, at each and every lane merge on the way out it is left/ right/left/right in turn.

Human beings are perfectly capable of organising themselves without the imposition of rules from on high. The people who cause the trouble take no notice of the rules anyway.

While you need lights at certain places like narrow bridges, at most junctions people sort themselves out perfectly well. Likewise, if you establish that a stretch of highway is shared, few motorists will wish to threaten pedestrians. Those who do will not be constrained by the rules anyway.

I have a strong feeling that the populace can organise themselves much better than idiot traffic lights with their inflexible timings whatever the traffic conditions.

Unfortunately, we are committed to the nanny state and the idea that we have to have order imposed by some 'authority'. I'm 66 years old, enough to have learned from experience that the man from ministry does not always know best.
 

Mussels

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 17, 2008
3,207
8
Crowborough
Traffic lights don't keep you long but when there's a set every 50 yards it soon gets tedious. The only lights I've know police to set up operations at is London Bridge station and that's because of the high number of cyclists being injured, seems fair to me.
Traffic lights don't win over many cyclists because they aren't designed for them. Several sets don't recognise bikes and others are just dangerous, through ignoring them I've learn't to ignore many.
 

HarryB

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 22, 2007
1,317
3
London
I came to the conclusion that it is the traffic lights that cause most of the congestion by watching what happens when they fail in central London. Each time this happens, contrary to what you would expect, there is less congestion. My proviso is that there will probably be need for pedestrians to cross safely but these could just as well be Zebras (which have fallen out of favour for funding reasons I believe) rather than traffic lights.

It goes back to what I was saying early in this thread and that we are organised as a car orientated society and the traffic lights reflect this. They instil a feeling of segregation and society reacts by seeing bits of road as 'my space, not your space' instead of a shared space - removing Zebras has reinforced this as this shared space works very well.

So one simple solution would be to get pedestrians and cyclist to share road space more effectively. Cyclists should always give way to pedestrian at crossings but the pedestrian phase of lights could be used as a shared phase for cyclists as well. This would help the grand prix situation where I feel most vulnerable. It would be less stressful for drivers as I appreciate having 20 or so wobbling cyclist in the green box ahead of you can be unnerving.

By the way I don't believe the time wasted at lights is insignificant and certainly accounts for 10-15 minutes on my 10 mile commute - not all of that is wasted of course but there is plenty of that time spent waiting for non existent cars/pedestrian.
 

Alex728

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 16, 2008
1,109
-1
Ipswich
I am surprised though that London boroughs are using or are perceived to be such old signalling equipment and layouts, I thought their traffic light controllers have moved on from the days of motor driven cams moving microswitches! Here in Ipswich the busier crossings have been upgraded just as people suggest with the pedestrian and cyclist phases linked, and the timings certainly do change with traffic conditions.

it would make a lot of sense to follow the Dutch road planning systems which share out the road much better and do have these split phase lights, as well as separate aspects for cyclists - but who will pay?
 

allen-uk

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 1, 2010
909
25
I came to the conclusion that it is the traffic lights that cause most of the congestion by watching what happens when they fail in central London. Each time this happens, contrary to what you would expect, there is less congestion.
Generally agree, HarryB. There are occasions when the buggers pour into junctions and block off traffic from crossing left or right, normally controlled in London by the box junction system, but as a rule, the less 'controls' the better (as long as the vulnerable are still protected).

There is a notable experiment in a small town in Sweden where they have removed all road signs and road furniture, with remarkably good results all round. The principle seems to be that if you let road users concentrate on moving safely along rather than constantly peering at signs and markings, they are generally safer.

A.
 

Alex728

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 16, 2008
1,109
-1
Ipswich
Generally agree, HarryB. There are occasions when the buggers pour into junctions and block off traffic from crossing left or right, normally controlled in London by the box junction system, but as a rule, the less 'controls' the better (as long as the vulnerable are still protected).

There is a notable experiment in a small town in Sweden where they have removed all road signs and road furniture, with remarkably good results all round. The principle seems to be that if you let road users concentrate on moving safely along rather than constantly peering at signs and markings, they are generally safer.

A.
was even planned to be tried in London, but did it happen?

BBC NEWS | UK | England | London | Road users mingle in naked scheme
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
There is a current plan to remove a number of London traffic light sets to see how it works, the chosen lights not revealed at present. Could be good, but the pedestrian organisations are very anti the scheme. With that strong opposition, one pedestrian accident could kill it at birth.
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HarryB

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 22, 2007
1,317
3
London
Some organisation can only see one side to the road safety and if you follow it to its natural conclusion you end up with cars and pedestrians segregated. We had a similar discussion about child safety on a thread a few months back and the consensus was either to lock your children at home or if you ever took them out only ever in the 4X4. I would like to see a little alternative thinking from this lot as it would be great to break down the barriers as they do in the Netherlands. Depends on what sort of society you want to live in.

On that note about society and community I have just been walking around the local area to find not one, but two street parties and I went to something similar yesterday. It could almost be 1977 again.
 

Alex728

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 16, 2008
1,109
-1
Ipswich
I would like to see a little alternative thinking from this lot as it would be great to break down the barriers as they do in the Netherlands. Depends on what sort of society you want to live in.
NL uses a combination of both strategies. busier areas do have more "segregation", although set out in a much better and equitable way, (with very sophisticated traffic signalling for both cars and cycles) and the "shared spaces" are more often found in "slower moving" towns. In fact we even have attempts at these this side of the North Sea, in Ipswich!

I recently saw a video of one in NL where an ambulance was coming through due to a RTC further up ahead and people were shouting let op! to warn others - people were sitting on tables in the "middle fo the street" drinking beer and it the ambulance was taking a route only permitted to motor traffic in emergencies..
 
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Mussels

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 17, 2008
3,207
8
Crowborough
I've just seen a copper booking a couple of cyclists in the City, looks like he was checking for reflectors etc. :rolleyes:
The crossing they had just come across is pretty dodgy so I'm not surprised they'd get knicked for jumping that one, I'm going to be very well behaved on the way home as a copper with a little knowledge will be a right pain scrutinising my pedelec.
 

HarryB

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 22, 2007
1,317
3
London
I followed somebody today doing a steady 20 (fair enough I was in car) - how safe. However she had the vanity mirror down and was doing her make-up - I kid you not - it went on for about a mile weaving across the road. At first I thought she was drunk. We need a doing make-up in the car crackdown.
 

Mussels

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 17, 2008
3,207
8
Crowborough
The City bike squad is out in force on Liverpool street today and they've left the heavy kit in the office today so they'll have half a chance of catching someone.
 

Barnowl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 18, 2008
954
1
However she had the vanity mirror down and was doing her make-up - I kid you not - it went on for about a mile weaving across the road. At first I thought she was drunk. We need a doing make-up in the car crackdown.
Yes, I've seen the same. It's not uncommon. I've also seen a bloke shaving while driving. Not to mention a driver and passenger watching a fair a sized DVD screen positioned above the front windscreen.
 

Alex728

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 16, 2008
1,109
-1
Ipswich
They are specifically City of London, but the Met have their own as well, mainly around the West end area. We also have cycling paramedics in the centre.
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I've seen the metpol ones but with different bikes. Suffolk tend to use the same pattern bicyles as the Met (like most of their kit including patrol cars, radios etc, I think they must have the same procurement teams).

East of England Ambulance uses a lot of cycling paramedics in pedestrianised town/city centre areas. Incidentally their bikes have 13g spokes on them due to the extra loads they carry.