Purchase advice please

After some considerable time considering the purchase of an e-bike I've decided to treat myself for Xmas.

 

I'm a lifelong off-road motorcyclist (ridden in Europe, Greece, S Africa, the Himalayas, Cambodia, and again in the Himalayas in August this year) but have now decided to move to off-road cycling so that I escape the wrath of those who still see motorcycles as a "lower class" mode of transport and motorcyclist as beneath contempt

 

I expect to be primarily riding pretty rough trails and forest tracks so have been looking for a full suspension mountain e-bike, with little success, and was about to buy a Kalkhoff Pro Connect Disc as a compromise (and subsequently ride less rough tracks)

 

By chance, and much reading on this forum, I have just discovered that there are a few full suspension e-bike about and I have been looking at the Tonaro Bighit, the Haibike eQ Xduro, and a number of KTM's (I've had many KTM motorcycles).

 

I live at the top of a big hill in a very hilly area (South Wales Valley), am 58, 6'1", 92kg and a gadget geek

 

I really need some help with this, money, although always a factor, won't be the major deciding issue - I want a quality e-bike that will help me climb the hills, ride rough tracks while my faithful dog runs along with me (so speed isn't a major issue either) - and finally, where can I buy the bike I choose.

 

Sorry for a long winded post but hope the forum can help.

Hi Bob and welcome to the forum!

 

I would think the Haibike your best bet or import a KTM as we did. They tend to be a bit better value IMO

 

50 cycles had a Haibike for sale at a decent discount price recently.......

Hi Bob......my advice is to try as many as you can........but off road......well.......try the Tonaro Bighit.......awesome.......and great value......eats hills

 

Lynda

There's also this Ebco one if you have plenty of cash:

EBCO to debut two new brands at the Cycle Show | Bicycle Business | BikeBiz

I've ridden the Haibike, which has good quality suspension and it's very powerful compared with other "legal" electric bikes. I would guess that it's a bit faster up the hills than a Tonaro, but I haven't yet ridden a Tonaro, so I can't say for certain.

If you're good with tools, you could build your own from a kit. I built this one for about £750 and it has top quality suspension and would blitz a haibike up any hill: http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq236/d8veh/Giant%20BPM/SANY0130.jpg

As you want to ride trails and forest tracks I would think a Haibike or similar would be ideal. Best to avoid powerful front wheel drive setups as the wheel will be scrabbling for grip on the loose and muddy stuff and will also upset handling. The battery mounting of the Haibike is in frame giving best balance and with the frame giving some protection it should be better protected if you are unfortunate enough to fall off!

Also the Haibike weighs in around 20kg so much better/safer handling and control.....

Edited October 27, 201114 yr by eddieo

A point that needs to be mentioned: There's no throttle on a Haibike, so it's pedal assist only.

 

Also, not so important but these powerful crank-drive bikes will probably destroy your gears quite qickly because you've got about three times the power going through them than what's normal. Even people with the rather tame Panasonic motors have mentioned having to replace gears and mechanisms.

Hi Bob

I'd go with the kit solution d8veh suggests. You can find kits with exactly your requirements and fit to your perfect bike. The only downside is the front wheel drive imposing unusual stresses on the frame and handling issues. An experienced cyclist like yourself will easily cope and a decent headset and forks combination will help solve the odd stresses imposed on the frame by being pulled rather than pushed.

You also get the advantage of all-wheel drive.

Many kits are available from members of this forum and some manufacturers are now supplying them - Wisper, Oxygen amongst others, including ourselves.

A Haibike or KTM would probably work best.

 

There's a few people on endless sphere that use downhill bikes with big direct drive hub motors that seem to take off road quite well. The only problem with that though is weight being higher and having an expensive controller and battery mounting problem.

 

Crank drive and Battery in the middle would provide the best options for off road really.

 

Gear hub motors from what I read don't tend to like being chucked on the rough stuff and usually ends with various gears being broken.

 

Although some of the roads I use arn't exactly smooth.

Hi Bob,

 

Welcome to forum. Which valley? I was born in Rhiwderin between Newport and Caerphilly ... in the ,,, umm .. inbetween the Usk and Rhymney rivers ... could be the Rhymney valley I suppose .. unless its not in an actual valley! ... I always tell people I'm from the valleys! ...

If I was going to get a mtb I think I would go for a crank drive. I always thought that the Gruber Assist looked good but I dont think any of our members have one ... I'd have a fixed gear hub in the rear wheel like a Rohloff or similar ... There are good range available at the moment so have fun trying all the various bikes ..

There is another crank drive Tonaro around and that is the Unicorn. Much the same as the Bighit with full suspension but using a more conventional "Y" frame rather than the cantilever saddle of the Bighit. I live on the 300 metre contour in the pennines and the only way out from home is a 50 metre vertical climb usng a 4x4 vehicle up a 1 in 4 (or 25% if yu wish). The Shimano Alvio 8 gears on the Tonaros are fairly high with a 42T ring and 32T as the lowest cog and 11T as the highest. Hence with a cadence of 90 R.P.M. at the crank you can hit 30 mph on the flat and grind up 1 in 4's at 4mph whilst pedalling at 40 rpm in bottom gear. Remember that you have the equivalent of an Olympic athlete helping you. To keep the motor spinning in bottom gear you need to pedal a bit when tackling a 1 in 4 but it just keeps going. The Unicorn nudges 30Kg all up including the standard 10Ah battery. It is an aluminium frame but built like a tank. I am not sure how you would destroy it; the worst outcome might be bent front forks.

After some considerable time considering the purchase of an e-bike I've decided to treat myself for Xmas.

 

I'm a lifelong off-road motorcyclist (ridden in Europe, Greece, S Africa, the Himalayas, Cambodia, and again in the Himalayas in August this year) but have now decided to move to off-road cycling so that I escape the wrath of those who still see motorcycles as a "lower class" mode of transport and motorcyclist as beneath contempt

 

So now you want to have the wrath of all those mountain bikers and cyclists who think using electric bikes is cheating. As a motorcyclist and an electric bike rider I get more grief from cyclists for using an electric bike than I have ever been given by car users for using a motorcycle. You are going to jump from the frying pan into the fire here.

 

You can do what I do though and ride your motorbike and an electric bike. Giving the motorbike up is just like agreeing that motorcyclists are second class citizens.

 

These are all mine and I am not giving them up for anyone.

 

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/steveindenmark/P1050866.jpg

 

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/steveindenmark/P1010622.jpg

 

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/steveindenmark/1956%20Cardellino/P1000098.jpg

 

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/steveindenmark/KGrHqFi0E6IUU6Y6jBOkJfqZVQQ60_3.jpg

 

Steve

A Freego (500 watt) Off road Bike might suit ? A brief description on this link. Electric Bikes from Atman at Sandwich, near Canterbury, Kent

 

If you contact Freego Sales, they maybe able to arrange a demo bike for you, or at least a dealer, who has one. ( martin@freegoelectricbikes.com )

 

Just brought a couple of Freego Eagles and impressed so far . (Might do a Utube review when we have a few more miles under the tyres ?)

 

Rgds

Edited October 27, 201114 yr by tonyishuk

If you want a full suspension bike that will ride bumpy terrain well you will get a better ride quality with a crank drive bike, the reason being a hub motor will give you a much higher unsprung weight and make the suspension less responsive and also the steering less responsive through the gyroscopic effect of having a heavy hub motor spinning around:

 

Unsprung Weight = Faster Lap Times

 

(this page is about dirt bikes but it explains the gist of it)

Hi Our Kits will fit most full suspension bikes they will climb mountains with 1,500 watts of power available rear hub motor we use 48 volt 15 AH battery mounted in a ruck sack

 

Battery weight 4.5 kilos

 

Rear wheel 8 kilos

 

we can supply a kit fitted to the 2 bikes below for £1660 + the bike + delivery

 

Diamondback - Mission 1

 

Diamondback - Sortie 1

 

Please call Me

 

 

Frank

Desperate for business Frank?

Hi NRG

 

This is A new product for our new range off 8 X bikes Including Twin wheel drive and a Dayton 20 inch folder and a Tandem

 

Our new range starts at £1295 For a Raleigh Diamond Back Peak DD with 48 volt 10AH Battery 1,500 watt rear motor Electronically restricted to 15 MPH

 

Just Answering the post

 

As this bike will do what it say on the tin

 

Frank

Hi Bob

 

Interesting thread, I've been researching exactly this subject for the last few weeks and will purchase once I find the right bike. I've decided that cheap Chinese kits a a definite "no" as I just don't think they are strong enough for proper off road use. I really want to keep away from the "garden shed" look.

 

I'm steering away from hub motor kits as I just don't think they will last off road, I believe they have worse climbing ability, less efficient, poor ride quality and they tend to have a high battery location which must compromise agility. Also not keen on the battery in a rucksack option either.

 

So what's left KTM, Haibike and no mention so far of the X-Flyer.

 

The KTM bikes look really nice, not sure about the price KTM Bikes // Bikes vom Besten! but looking at the pictures of the standard Bosch motor fitting, it seems somewhat exposed, and I know I will ding it at some point.

 

Have a look at the 2012 Haibike range Haibike

 

That is getting really close for me, the new 29 inch wheel is something I have to try out.

 

LEV | our shop | buy electric bikes

 

I thought the Swiss flyer was nearer 5K but should be worth a look as the Panasonic system is well proven now.

 

The other thing to think about is Bosch have just released a 350w system, Bosch Introduces 28 MPH Bottom Bracket Motor | Doped Bike

 

So far the bike I really want doesn't exist yet, full suspension 29 inch wheel with the 350 watt, Bosch motor. The Haibike gets closest, interested to see if you can dig anything better out.

 

Good luck,

 

(please ignore all typos, spelling, grammar etc etc etc I got a D in English and proud of achieving that!)

 

I have no association with any of the links above. Also don't go too nuts about the whole hub motor thing, its just my opinion regards more serious mtbing.+ Any other disclaimers you can think of. (please don't start any manufacturer squabbling, not interested:p)

 

Let us know what you get, have fun looking.

 

R.

In my opinion if you want to really hammer it off road you are better off with normal mountain bike size wheels (26") as in my experience 29" wheels arent as strong.

 

So what's left KTM, Haibike and no mention so far of the X-Flyer.

 

The KTM bikes look really nice, not sure about the price.

 

Forum member EddieO rated the Flyer X very highly apart from the price, but bought a KTM.

Hi Polar

 

Thanks for your posting That is Just what this forum is about letting others know your

 

Findings

 

Great posting Please keep it updated

 

 

 

Frank

Forum member EddieO rated the Flyer X very highly apart from the price, but bought a KTM.

 

What happened to EddieO's KTM? There seemed to be some sobbing in previous thred?? The price seems really good, are the components up to it?

 

I'm struggling with nearly 3K on the Haibike with an as yet unproven system. Someone in Germany had one fail after three months, admittedly after hard use.

 

I have a few concerns over reliability, hamming it off road really tests bike components, the 29 inch wheel strength is a really good point, thanks oigoi.

 

I do have a few doubts that any e mtb system can cope with hard off road use, so replacement parts availability and cost is a big factor, I don't want to have to spend loads every year fixing it after the warranty expires, or have to severely restrict how its used to avoid damage.

 

Anyone know what a replacement system costs? That is a big factor for me, as with any off roading, I expect it to break sometimes, knowing how to fix it again is all part of the fun. I think the Panasonic system was replaced as a whole unit, anyone have any idea of cost?

 

Being miles away from the supplier, I cant just drop in to get it fixed, I like to be able to replace anything myself if possible, I have been known to strip a grinding bottom bracket half way through a long ride, long time ago...

Hi Polar

 

Thanks for your posting That is Just what this forum is about letting others know your

 

Findings

 

Great posting Please keep it updated

 

 

 

Frank

 

Thanks Frank.

 

I have just re-read my first post and it could be taken that I was having a dig. Not the case at all, in fact I think your passion to get cars off the road is great, and a good foundation for a business you believe in. I'm just looking for something that i'm not sure exists yet, getting close though. All the best.

The Bosch KTM Macina we had I would think not really suitable for serious off road stuff (along with some of the recommendations on here!) I had to get rid as wife hated the crossbar and I need to get a step through to keep her happy:(

 

The idea was I would use the Bosch for exercise/every day cycling, which I did, and have the DaaHub for fun/speed. Then when we go away in our motorhome wife would use the KTM. She loved the system but crossbar was a real problem

 

The Haibike with full suspension is the only one really I guess for serious off road stuff. I would try the 250 watt first as it has plenty of power. The consensus (in Germany) seems to be that Bosch system is a better hill climber then Panasonic system. but latest 36 volt Panasonic may be as good but prices very high, far higher then then Haibike. when you look at prices of Flyer (dread to think what 36 volt will be!) The Haibike looks a bit of a bargain!

 

The KTM 29'er (20.7 kg/11 speed alfina) @ approx £2400 would do the job...Do you really need dual suspension, I dont know.....

 

Macina 29"

 

Both Kalkhoff and Flyer have Bosch powered bikes for 2012. The Kalkhoff S version start at around £2400 a bit of a bargain compared to new Panasonic system! But not an off road bike.......the flyer will be I would think...

Edited October 29, 201114 yr by eddieo

Many thanks for all the replies and advice everyone.

 

eddieo - I am gravitating towards a Haibike or KTM - are the KTM's available in the UK, or can you tell me where they are available?

 

Lynda - as above - having read everything I can find on the Tonaro it just seems to be a little too agricultural and the technology dated.

 

d8veh - I've decided that whatever I get will be crank driven, as much for aesthetics as anything else but they do seem to be generally considered best for hills. Although I'm sure I could build my own - I've built a kit car and a few motorbikes in the past - wanting a crank drive pretty much rules that out.

 

kitchenman - eastern valley (Cwmbran) - thanks for the pointer to Gruber Assist - it did interest me at first but it seems a little too small to be robust enough and I don't want to wear a battery!

 

steveindenmark - I could never give up motocycling, it's in my blood - will still have my road bike and a dirt bike for forest competitions but the bicycle will be for recreation. I certainly didn't think I'd ever get grief from other cyclist though - but no matter, I'm a big boy and can give as good as I get.

 

frank - 1500 watt, I want to ride it not fly it but thanks for the offer.

 

flecc - have read your posts for a few years now and appreciate your expertise in all things pedelec. Your advice to others was what originally set me on the course to a kalkhoff panasonic and I was about to buy a Pro Connect Disc but don't think it would cope too well with the type of off-roading I hope to do.

 

Polar753 - we seem to be looking for pretty much the same thing, and have come to the same conclusions. It seems that ebikes are evolving so quickly now that it is always tempting to wait for the next new best thing, like 350w motors, but as soon as that becomes available they'll announce the 500w motor and so on and so on, and I'd end up waiting forever. I believe a 250w motor with a range of about 25 miles per battery will be more that enough for me. Incidentally what would be your opinion of a pro connect being used off-road?

 

To everyone else, thank you very much for your advice, it's all been very much appreciated.

 

So far it's either a Haibike or a KTM.