PSWPower after sales service?

[Laser Man]

So far no-one has said that a 250w kit is actually capable of doing this.

Depends how fast you want to go up. 250W will manage most hills so long as you use the gears sensibly and put in a small amount of effort yourself.

Cycling around north of Romsey (where it is at least as hilly as the New Forest) I have found only one hill which defeats my 250W rear hub motor. That is Cow Drove Hill out of Kings Sombourne : I don't know how steep it is (no signs as it is a back road), but smaller cars struggle with it creeping up in low gear. I can barely walk up it pushing the bike!

I'm only beginning to walk properly again after about 2 years being crippled with an arthritic knee. This means that I can't add much muscle power, but find 250W perfectly adequate and managing most hills between 7 and 10MPH.

 

[Woosh]

OK guys, I get what you are all saying, and I agree, legal is best.
However, if I can't get a kit with enough grunt to assist me up those gravelly hills without sweating too much, then I'll go for a 750w kit.

So far no-one has said that a 250w kit is actually capable of doing this.

I don't want to spend the best part of £6-700 and still be disappointed, I would rather have the illegal kit and just use it off-road.

the kits I sell are usually good for climbing up to 15% gradient without sweating.
The BBSHD 1000W can go a bit higher, 20%.
How often you need that extra ability?

 

[sjpt]

That is Cow Drove Hill out of Kings Sombourne

Looking at Cow Drove Road on https://gb.mapometer.com/cycling it peaks briefly at 23.9%. Probably exaggerated by sampling and noise, but the bottom section is over 20% for a big enough chunk to be reliable.

 

[vidtek]

Looking at Cow Drove Road on https://gb.mapometer.com/cycling it peaks briefly at 23.9%. Probably exaggerated by sampling and noise, but the bottom section is over 20% for a big enough chunk to be reliable.

Guys- You see this is another thing, I have not come across this new % thing with hills. I presume a 25% is a one in 4 gradient, is this right? Most of the hills in the New Forest are not that steep, probably more like a one in 7, although on some ridge paths there are some real doozies much steeper, but short. At the moment I just get off and push.

 

[Nealh]

My 250w 8fun cst hub in pas 5 outputs 800w @20a plenty for a burst up a steeper incline, usually I only use pas 2 or 3 as does my 350w Yose.
Although the top end of the controller ampage isn't used much it is there if needed, other wise just means lower pas levels have a bit more nip to them.
Typical 5 level pas system will have % range of 13 (1), 20 (2), 33 (3), 50(4) & 100(5) of available amps.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Guys- You see this is another thing, I have not come across this new % thing with hills. I presume a 25% is a one in 4 gradient, is this right? Most of the hills in the New Forest are not that steep, probably more like a one in 7, although on some ridge paths there are some real doozies much steeper, but short. At the moment I just get off and push.

https://www.bicycling.com/racing/a20046569/the-10-toughest-climbs-of-the-2017-tour-de-france/

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/vuelta-a-espana/the-vuelta-a-espana-will-take-on-an-incredibly-steep-31-climb-and-these-photos-show-just-how-tough-it-is-345302

Anything over 17% is either hard work or a really low bottom gear on a pedelec.

25% the road climbs 25 cm every metre, whether the metre is measured on the hypotenuse or the long side of the triangle is up for interpretation.

 

[sjpt]

My 250w 8fun cst hub in pas 5 outputs 800w @20a

I guess that means you have a 48v version, so you are getting a bit more than the 48V TSDZ2 that Woosh talked about earlier?

25% is a one in 4 gradient, is this right? I believe so; 1 in 7 is about 14%. I think they are always quoted vertical distance against road distance, not against horizontal distance. Doesn't make much difference for small slopes, but starts to be significant at 1 in 3.

At the moment I just get off and push. Most eBikes have a walk assist feature which will power up to 4mph or so. You might want to double-check before you commit to any particular system.

 

[vidtek]

My 250w 8fun cst hub in pas 5 outputs 800w @20a plenty for a burst up a steeper incline, usually I only use pas 2 or 3 as does my 350w Yose.
Although the top end of the controller ampage isn't used much it is there if needed, other wise just means lower pas levels have a bit more nip to them.
Typical 5 level pas system will have % range of 13 (1), 20 (2), 33 (3), 50(4) & 100(5) of available amps.

https://www.bicycling.com/racing/a20046569/the-10-toughest-climbs-of-the-2017-tour-de-france/

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/vuelta-a-espana/the-vuelta-a-espana-will-take-on-an-incredibly-steep-31-climb-and-these-photos-show-just-how-tough-it-is-345302

Anything over 17% is either hard work or a really low bottom gear on a pedelec.

25% the road climbs 25 cm every metre, whether the metre is measured on the hypotenuse or the long side of the triangle is up for interpretation.

Kiwi-
Blimey, I haven't seen the term hypoteneuse since I left college in 1970. Then it was in relation to vector diagrams, never really did get the hang of them! It was a bit like propagation theory, I sort of got it, but not really, a lot of that stuff was a bit over my head to be honest I just sort of scraped through my exams for tv engineering.

Tony

 

[vidtek]

I guess that means you have a 48v version, so you are getting a bit more than the 48V TSDZ2 that Woosh talked about earlier?

25% is a one in 4 gradient, is this right? I believe so; 1 in 7 is about 14%. I think they are always quoted vertical distance against road distance, not against horizontal distance. Doesn't make much difference for small slopes, but starts to be significant at 1 in 3.

At the moment I just get off and push. Most eBikes have a walk assist feature which will power up to 4mph or so. You might want to double-check before you commit to any particular system.

Thanks Sjpt-
Very helpful and something I can actually understand.
Cheers, Tony.

 

[vidtek]

My 250w 8fun cst hub in pas 5 outputs 800w @20a plenty for a burst up a steeper incline, usually I only use pas 2 or 3 as does my 350w Yose.
Although the top end of the controller ampage isn't used much it is there if needed, other wise just means lower pas levels have a bit more nip to them.
Typical 5 level pas system will have % range of 13 (1), 20 (2), 33 (3), 50(4) & 100(5) of available amps.

Neal, Thank you but I haven't a clue as to how this relates to whether or not a 250w crank motor will actually assist me up these hills. They are not that steep, just have lots of gravel and water gullies running through them. The front drive 500w Whoosh Sunbear I had handled them with ease, but the front wheel on gravel caused a few mishaps, it was just downright dangerous for this old body, so I got the Freego Eagle with 250w rear hub motor. It just can't cope with the hills, it's pretty useless as a pedelec on them as I have to put in 80% of the effort required.

I still don't know the answer to my original question, will it be any better than the Freego Eagle? If so by how much? I don't want to spend £6-700 on a kit that is no better on these hills than the one I've already got-what is the point of that?

I am really grateful for you all for your replies here, there is nothing better than advice from those who have been there.
I'm just more confused than ever, Tony

 

[Nealh]

I guess that means you have a 48v version, so you are getting a bit more than the 48V TSDZ2 that Woosh talked about earlier?

25% is a one in 4 gradient, is this right? I believe so; 1 in 7 is about 14%. I think they are always quoted vertical distance against road distance, not against horizontal distance. Doesn't make much difference for small slopes, but starts to be significant at 1 in 3.

At the moment I just get off and push. Most eBikes have a walk assist feature which will power up to 4mph or so. You might want to double-check before you commit to any particular system.

No 36v hub over volted.

 

[Nealh]

I still don't know the answer to my original question, will it be any better than the Freego Eagle? If so by how much? I don't want to spend £6-700 on a kit that is no better on these hills than the one I've already got-what is the point of that?

I am really grateful for you all for your replies here, there is nothing better than advice from those who have been there.
I'm just more confused than ever, Tony

It's a hard nut to crack unless you are able to try a converted bike, then you will be able to gauge how much effort is required.
That which is easy for one rider may not be for another as each of us has different ability,strengths' & weaknesses.

 

[Woosh]

but I haven't a clue as to how this relates to whether or not a 250w crank motor will actually assist me up these hills. They are not that steep, just have lots of gravel and water gullies running through them. The front drive 500w Whoosh Sunbear I had handled them with ease, but the front wheel on gravel caused a few mishaps, it was just downright dangerous for this old body,

the Sunbear has 36V 20A controller.
The TSDZ2 has 48V at 16A, slightly more.

 

[vidtek]

OK so I'm going to take a chance on Whoosh's TSDZ2. I have decided I really want to be street legal as I want to do more on-road rides as the local council here get their act together with the cycleways here in Poole/Bournemouth, riding along the promenade here is lovely in the Spring. It's possible to go almost from Hengistbury Head to Sandbanks along the sea front, about 7 miles.

Thank you all for your help, this old fart will report back when he gets it up and running.

EDIT: I have just had a really good look at the instructions for the Whoosh kit and it says I will lose my front derailleur, I don't know if that is what I really want. Also I have seen this in this forum:- https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/problem-with-new-tongsheng-tsdz2.29535/
There seems to be a programming issue with the VLCD-5 display unit, and the latest is the VLCD-6, so I wonder why Whoosh are still using this old one with these problems. There are also reports of the TSDZ2 motors being unbearably loud. So I think I'll hold fire and wait a bit longer unless Whoosh can allay my concerns. Maybe I'll revisit a rear hub drive.
There does seem to be a thriving modding community with this motor that has written better firmware:- https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=4125

 

[vidtek]

It's a hard nut to crack unless you are able to try a converted bike, then you will be able to gauge how much effort is required.
That which is easy for one rider may not be for another as each of us has different ability,strengths' & weaknesses.

Neal- Yes this is what I suspected and the real reason why nobody can give me a definitive answer to this 250w crank drive being better than the 250w hub drive I already have. I was ready to buy the Whoosh one until I read the bit about losing my front gears, Also they don't like alternative firmware voiding their warranty.

I do like to poke around in the electronics of my gear, I don't know I will have the willpower not to fiddle for a year until the warranty expires!

There are some dreadful reports of the original topic of this thread, pswpower. Whoosh are so good by comparison. Andy was brilliant with a few things when I bought my Sunbear a few years ago and I feel great loyalty towards them for that. Whether or not it will be enough to make me buy from them.....I don't know at this moment.....Cheers, Tony.

 

[Woosh]

EDIT: I have just had a really good look at the instructions for the Whoosh kit and it says I will lose my front derailleur, I don't know if that is what I really want. Also I have seen this in this forum:- https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/problem-with-new-tongsheng-tsdz2.29535/
There seems to be a programming issue with the VLCD-5 display unit, and the latest is the VLCD-6, so I wonder why Whoosh are still using this old one with these problems.

his problem has nothing to do with the programming of the VLCD-5.
The speed sensor on the Tongseng needs to be fairly accurately set because the sensor element inside the head is very sensitive.
There is an arrow at the top of the sensor casing. The centre of the spoke magnet needs to be lined up to this arrow.
The distance between the magnet and the sensor case needs to be about 5mm-6mm.
If the magnet is too close or the centre of the magnet is not lined up to the arrow, the magnetic field is too strong or not correctly read, he will see the wrong speed.

 

[jarob10]

Get yourself a bbs02 or hd. It'll flatten any hill without a front derailleur. Life's too short!

 

[Woosh]

Get yourself a bbs02 or hd. It'll flatten any hill without a front derailleur. Life's too short!

it's still nice to have the kit with standard 5-bolt BCD ring system. How many crank drives in the market that you know having this capacity? this is before the low weight advantage of the TSDZ2 compared to Bafang CD kits.
it's too early days for me to shout praises for the Tongsheng kit, but I have to say this, from my experience, the Tongsheng LCD is better designed, smarter programmed, the wiring system is as neat as you would find on a German bike, the torque sensor system makes it ride much like a German bike, the optional throttle system makes it better, more versatile than German bikes and last but not least, it's hell a lot easier to service than German CD motors.

 

[vidtek]

I'm still humming and hahhing... I would like the certainty of the Bafang as against the unknown quantity of the Tongsheng kit, but Andy and Tony at Whoosh seem to think it will suffice for my purpose. They are better equipped than most to advise, and I believe they are genuine in their advice, not driven by what makes the most profit for them. They would not be so active on here and so well respected here if that were the case.
They only seem to do the earlier Bafang stuff, there seems to be no BBs02 kit from them, and no hd kit either.
If I was to go for the Bafang I would plump for the hd kit as if I am getting an off-road only kit I may as well get one that does the job and more. That leads to a quandary with after-sales-service, my original concern and why I started this topic. I seem to be going round in circles!!!

 

[Woosh]

there seems to be no BBs02 kit from them, and no hd kit either.

it's partly due to our desire to reduce the range of not road legal kits and partly because we don't make any money from BBS02 sales. The failure rate of controllers on the BBS02B is something like 3-4 times that on the BBS01B. Internal controllers on CD kits are fragile, coupled to freely available programming kit for the BBSes multiplies the commercial risk. I made the point of stop digging when you are in a hole a long time ago.