Project Q bike

[coops]

That's really very interesting Pete, I've never heard that before, but the most interesting part is that though you say you don't understand it, you've explained exactly why it works!

Because you feel friendly towards someone who has let you do them a favour shows that, by letting you do them a favour, they've somehow brought out of you a friendliness towards them (I hope that makes sense).

Sounds counterintuitive, and I'm not sure its universally applicable; I don't understand it either, but it seems to work

 

[Charlie]

Hi Flecc,
Excellent bike and article.

On the a derestricted Torq, while it will cruise at around 21mph, when I put considerable pedalling effort into it, it seems to only make a marginal difference. It's as if the motor is no longer performing work once past the 21mph mark. Do you know if the motor/controller is designed to start reducing power once a certain number of rev's is reached?

Charlie.

 

[flecc]

Hi Charlie, my Torq is exactly the same for me. There's two elements at work here. First there's the sharp rise in air resistance at around 20 mph onwards, common to all bikes of course, but as the Torq riding position is fairly upright it's a very big factor on that. Hence the drop handlebars and lycra that club riders use to make them more slippery though the air.

The other factor is the bike efficiency. The standard tyres are quite hard wearing and puncture resistant, but they do have quite high drag compared with the best available. The standard gearing is very high to match the motor's very high innate gearing in the 28" wheel, so that high gearing might tend you pull you into using higher gears than your optimum. Keen club riders will tell you that the physiological optimum cadence (pedal rotation per minute) is 90, and that's quite a fast spin, one and a half rotations a second. Try dropping a gear and spinning faster, you might find it giving you an advantage.

There are other more obscure losses too. You may have found that the ride at the front feels quite harsh and hammers through the handlebars on rough surfaces. That's the effect of the high unsprung weight of the motorised front wheel throwing the bike about with each bump. When a wheel hits uneven road surfaces, forward energy is lost on every ripple, and converted into the vertical energy you feel. Because the weight of the torq wheel being thrown is much greater than an unmotorised wheel, the energy loss is very much greater.

Another factor is that riders commonly alleviate that discomfort with fairly low tyre pressures, and that of course greatly increases the tyre drag.

In theory on a half discharged Li-ion battery the Torq motor should pull you to 22 mph, and on a fully charged Li-ion battery to just over 25 mph, but of course it doesn't, entirely due to the factors I've mentioned, the wind resistance and energy losses. Those speeds correspond to the maximum revs possible at the voltage the battery delivers at those states of charge. Both are a bit beyond the point of the motors maximum efficiency at 20 mph on a fully charged battery, and from that point power will taper off.

Hope that's some help.
.

 

[frank9755]

Why modify rather than build?

Flecc,

This Q Bike project has been very interesting to read about. It looks like you have applied a bit of thought and cycling knowledge to produce something that is significantly better than anything on the market.

Can I ask, why did you choose to approach it by modifying an existing bike, rather than building one using a kit? Did you consider that route and rule it out for any reason, or was it a case that you had that bike and were thinking for the best solution for it?

I suppose what I am getting at is 'is the kit approach to getting a bike to fit your needs any good, or do you just end up with a lot of work to end up with a messy solution?'

Frank

 

[flecc]

I covered this question in my first posting draft Frank, but edited it out to reduce the posting length.

For several reasons I don't have much faith in kits, most falling well short of being good products.

First, one might ask why a manufacturer accepts the minimised profit from a kit when the margin could be so much greater with a complete bike. In my experience in most cases it's because of the kit's shortcomings. Also, only the illegal ones could conceivably do the job, none of the legal kits gets near the Quando/Torq motor for performance. I wanted legal for the reasons I've already stated, and also illegally high powered ones suffer from short range.

Normal bikes aren't suitable in many ways for conversion. There are no frame strength or braking allowances for the much heavier weight. Most kits are front motor and normal forks aren't really up to the job. Worst of all is where the battery goes, invariably only a messy or unbalanced solution is possible.

Now look at what I had with the Quando. It's the most powerful, full speed, legal electric hill climber bar none. The frame is very strong. There's a choice of low cost integrated batteries, both NiMh and Li-ion. The carrier is low so eminently suitable for load carrying. It's rear motor is best for some things, much better comfort, plus stability for the towing application I'd already proved with it. Front motors are inferior for both those. And as if that's not enough, it folds into my small car boot in seconds.

None of that is available from a kit, nor is much of it available with any other e-bike on the market. The Quando is an unfulfilled gem, a view that A to B magazine also expressed years ago, and I've long had it in mind to realise it's potential, that of being a universal do anything bike.

P.S. It's now over six weeks since I rode my Torq or Twist bikes. I think that says it all really.
.

 

[frank9755]

Thanks - that answers my question.

Those kits can look ok on paper but all the pictures I've seen look just a bit too ragged to take seriously. Also I can imagine weeks of frustrating tweaking trying to get it all to work.


It's a simple but very effective solution you've put together.
- Small wheels + decent motor gives great torque for hill climbing and good acceleration at low-medium speeds.
- Light bike + proper gearing means you can pedal it to a good speed on the flat and get a decent range.

Why didn't Ezee or any other bike manufacturer think of it! I guess with the Torq, Ezee has come up with a good solution to solve exactly the opposite (ie the wrong) problem!

 

[flecc]

Your last sentence says it all Frank. Unfortunately though, consumers must share the blame, since they tend to be attracted by the "headline" items, and speed always figures largely in that, as does fashion.

Tell many that a bike is better for carrying, towing, general running around etc, and it can be greeted with a yawn, especially if the bike isn't perceived as being in a fashionable style, mountain bike, cruiser etc.

So although I don't approve, I can see why manufacturers take the line of least resistance and answer superficial demands for inefficient bikes.

Maybe eZee will follow this up now though. They'd clearly toyed with gears on it, since the spindle length is much greater than necessary, though they hadn't seemed to have solved the strength problem.

 

[nigel]

Nigel

By Flecc
Why didn't Ezee or any other bike manufacturer think of it! I guess with the Torq, Ezee has come up with a good solution to solve exactly the opposite (ie the wrong problem
Well i hope they take a good look at what you have done to the quando thats the only thing that has stopped me from buying the quando 1 gear is no good on a longish journey also with gears i can get some exercise as well also it will help in saving battery power

 

[JohnInStockie]

Well i hope they take a good look at what you have done to the quando thats the only thing that has stopped me from buying the quando 1 gear is no good on a longish journey also with gears i can get some exercise as well also it will help in saving battery power

I echo your sentiments Nigel. If that bike was on the market, it would be the market leader.

Nice one Flecc for showing the manufacturers what they should be thinking about.

John

 

[flecc]

Thanks John. I live in hope that it may happen one day. It would be good for the manufacturers to learn that there is also a sensible and perceptive buying public out here, who are only buying their present products by default, in the absence of what they really want and need.
.

 

[frank9755]

You make some valide points, Flecc, about the consumer getting what s/he deserves. Some consumers have more sophisticated understanding of what they want but I guess the market is not mature enough yet for it to be worthwhile for manufacturers to go after that segment. Let's hope it does happen soon though!
Frank

 

[richard]

market maturity

With regard to market maturity I would be very interested to know the annual sales of electric bicycles over say, the last five years and what the trend or rate of increase is. anybody got any idea ?
Flecc perhaps ??

Richard

 

[flecc]

I don't know at all Richard. I strongly suspect that it's increasing in the more intensive use areas like commuting, things like the London congestion charge, higher car running costs, and public transport overload sparking lots more sales. There's also been an increase in businesses dedicated to electric sales, sometimes of several vehicle types, but some bike only.

I don't think the "shopper" market has been increasing though. By this I mean the sales of the rather oddly styled Chinese imports circa £350 that firms like Thompson sold in thousands every year from around 2000 to about 2004/5. The customers were mainly using them for local shopping, short distances without pedalling, and it's a scene that seems to rather quiet now, perhaps a sign of the market growing up though.
.

 

[frank9755]

Market size

Interesting question!

I've done a little research on the internet. Based on what I've seen I would estimate the UK market to be 7-10,000 bikes with a market value of £3-6m, growing at 15-25% per year, and mainly a leisure, not commuter, market. This is my evidence.

I can't find any hard UK market data. The first thing I looked at was Powabyke's revenues. I found a 2003 comment which said they were £2.5m, 'hoping for £3m in 2005.' They also said they had sold 15,000 from 1999-2003. Also Bikebiz.co.uk estimates their 2005 sales at 5000 units (at average price of say £700 retail incl extras [what gross margin do bike retailers make? - I guessed they were getting a third of that] that would suggest Powabyke revenue of £2.3m from electric bikes (plus a bit more for their golf trolleys and scooters - seems consistent)

I found this from Cycle Electric. Good data on the global market but unfortunately about 5 years old!

Electric Bicycles
Last 12 months
China 1.0 million Avg Price about 300 US
Japan 160 - 200,000 Avg Price about 750 US
EU 65,000 Avg Price about 1,000 US
USA 35,000 Avg Price about 1500 US
China is expected to grow to about 4 – 10 million units per year
Japan will grow to about 500,000 per year
EU and USA will grow to about 1.5 million units per year.
Chief obstacles are performance and price.
In Europe also improving the dealer network.

There's more detail including sales by manufacturer on their site:
http://www.cycleelectric.com/rsc/worldsales2003.pdf

I also found a comment dated March this year from the same people quoted in the press saying:

...global sales of bikes driven by battery-powered electric motors have climbed nearly 20 percent since 2005, a trend projected to accelerate especially in developing countries, where the middle class is rising. "E-bikes have been under the radar," said Ed Benjamin, president of Cycle Electric, a multinational consultancy based in Fort Myers, Florida. "Now 20 million units a year sell. The business is young and growing crazy fast."

Doing the maths on that, a market which has grown from c1.3m in 2001/02 to 20m in 2006/07 implies a rate of growth of over 70% per year (compound annual growth rate). They have a report out but are charging a few hundred pounds for it and my curiousity doesn't quite justify that!

However, indsutry analysts tend to over-egg things and most of that is China not here. Nevertheless, it still suggests a growth market.

This fits the facts that we are seeing here. Lots of new products coming to market. More manufacturers getting in to the retail channel - UrbanMover and Powacycle seem to be gaining ground. An interesting recent article from India talks about a similar situation there.
E-Bikes, e-bicycles to hit Indian roads soon : HindustanTimes.com

Regarding the other question - who is buying them, personal experience makes me feel it is still a leisure market.
- I'm not seeing them in the Central London commuter run. Having done my journey about six times now on my Powabyke (and many more times on my normal bike), I've not seen a single other electric. The London commuter run is quite a macho world - lots of lycra, high speeds, having the confidence to take on traffic on busy junctions, etc. Average age probably <30. I can imagine them making more of an inroad on easier commutes or legs of commutes, such as within quieter suburbs, smaller towns or to get to the station.
- I do, however, see them in leisure situations. A woman rode one down my street the other week, with her young children (who were on pedal-only power). A couple of weeks ago we had a weekend break on the South Coast and I saw two.
- I think most of the market is towards lower-end bikes which are not up to regular commuting. Most markets have a high volume low end, and available evidence suggests this is no exception; Powabyke succeeded where Giant failed with the Lafree by rejecting expensive Nickel and choosing lead acid technology to bring out the £500 bike). We're seeing multiple low-end ads on ebay, with some of those machines appearing in shops. I feel this supports Flecc's point - if your market is growing at 70% (or even a quarter of that), why worry about satisfying the fussy but tiny minority who want an engineering masterpiece - just churn out a good-enough product as fast as you can!

I'd be very interested if anyone has other data.

Frank

 

[electric.mike]

Frank
no facts or figures only observations from the ebike capital of the uk Grimsby, i don't work regular hours in town so the commuter aspect i cant comment on.
what i do see is the shopping/visiting journeys during the day,every ebike i have seen except two where being used for these tasks,i have lost count of how many ebikes there are in this area but its got to be 15-20 yet i can still go 1-2 weeks without seeing one.
so this does not mean that they are not being used for daily chores it just means the chances of seeing one is slim to say the least.
i have seen 2 or 3 giants but the rest have been the cheaper end.
mike

 

[Ian]

I suspect that many of the lower end bikes are bought as impulse purchases and will suffer the same fate as conventional cycles bought in similar circumstances. ie. used until the novelty wears off and then laid up in the back of a shed until thrown away years later.

We have a local charity that collects and re-cycles unwanted bicycles, many of the bikes they collect are virtually unused, the only thing wrong with them being flat tyres. I fear that in todays throw away world many of the electric bikes sold today are destined to have very short working lives.

 

[flecc]

Ian's point is certainly valid in my experience, and it's supported by the main bicycle market where 2 million a year are sold in the UK, many seeing only one or two trips out before being slung into the back of the garage to quietly rot for a few years until disposal. That's certainly been the fate of the cheap end electrics from Thompson and the like, judging from the bits from them that appear on the market, motorised wheels etc. The problem with those cheap electrics is that once people have tried them, they are probably written off as potential e-bike purchasers for life.

But the mainstream e-bike market is definitely under £500/£600. Those models can sell in the UK 5000 or more in a year, while even the most popular top end model, the Torq, struggles to top 1000 in a year. We in this forum are generally e-bike enthusiasts who sometimes buy more expensive stuff, but we are in no way representative of those who buy the bulk of the e-bikes.

It's good to hear that the shopper market is healthy elsewhere, not much evidence of it round my way. Probably too hilly!
.

 

[JohnInStockie]

Some consumers have more sophisticated understanding of what they want but I guess the market is not mature enough yet for it to be worthwhile for manufacturers to go after that segment. Let's hope it does happen soon though!
Frank

I agree, though I think its a perception thing. The consumers in the UK see bikes generally as a leisure item, and few see them as a serious alternative to the car for commuting (perhaps just us).

If the situation arises that the market perception of e-bikes get enough publicity that their perception changes, then we will see a lot more people willing to spend more on their bikes, but the manufacturers need to try and help change this perception by stocking and selling bikes like Flecc's, along with perhaps cheaper large wheeled MTB's.

John

 

[FatMog]

I'm an average user, me...

As I have mentioned before, I use my bike for a definite journey to see my horse. Cycle tracks almost all the way, or nice easy roads if I choose.

I live in Bracknell, which (with the possible exception of Swindon ) is the roundabout capital of the world. I live all of about 2 miles from the town centre, and I could easily incorporate this into the horse journey and indeed, I was pondering this over my sunday morning brekkie-in-bed when I realised I did need to pop into town today.

But - I can get almost all the way there on cycle tracks and easy roads, and then I have absolutely no idea how to negotiate the inner ring road and attendant roundabouts without launching myself into mainstream multi-lane traffic. Bracknell seems very keen on cycle pavements but hasn't quite got them joined up yet. And I'm a big wimp. So I'm stymied by this inner-Bracknell road-mess thing.

And I don't want to leave my bike unattended. I can lock it up, but I'd have to remove all the desirables like the computer, my rack pack etc and cart them around with me. And that won't stop the yoof from amusing themselves with the rest. Am I being too untrusting?

It just seems easier to take the car and keep the bike for the more enjoyable and secure route to ponee. I guess a lot of wimpy leisure cyclists like me are gonna be put off by this type of thing.

Oh, I work over by the Madjeski stadium in Reading and I regularly see a man commuting (never pedalling ) on a leccy bike, don't know what sort, one of those shopper types with the battery built into the down tube. And the other day I saw another bloke on a new-looking powabyke in the same area. But then I think Reading has a powabyke dealership.

 

[JohnInStockie]

FatMog - I know what you mean about roundabouts, they are difficult at best to negotiate. I think I read somewhere that the majority of car accidents are on roundabouts, I know the only crash I have ever had was on one. For me as a cyclist, one of the big difficulties is signalling your intentions on a roundabout, especially when you want to keep going around, and maintain good control of the bike.

I think whatever you use your bike for, its good for you and everyone else that your using it. I just hope we can weaken the 'car culture' that we have endemic throughout our society, so that planners would give us a bit more thought.

John