Project Q bike

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Thanks FatMog, but you are all most definitely worthy. I'm a great believer in open source and shared knowledge, since I believe that in principle all knowledge belongs to all people, simply because the content of the knowledge has always existed and cannot be owned by anyone. Now I bet that causes some head scratching. :)
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Hi Paul

There were some similar motors around, but yours sounds different. Mine didn't have a band brake thread, just a plain steel drum.

Yes, definitely address the bike efficiency first.

For example, lash your motor into a club rider's slim tyred efficient bike and it will really motor. Add your power and it will take off even better yet.

Then switch it into a knobbly tyred full suspension mountain bike and you'll wonder what went wrong with the motor. Now pedal that and wonder where your strength went.

That's an extreme example, but there are degrees of that with every bike that's less than fully efficient.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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I presume it's called a Q bike because of "Q cars" which are supposed to look ordinary but are fitted with powerful motors and running gear to have higher performance.

There were also "Q ships" in WWII which looked like ordinary freighters but instead were heavily armed to knock out German subs.

Of course it may just be because you just got tired scrapping the letters off the frame of your donor bike the Quando.

Mike
I posted it on the introduction Mike, you must have got tired of reading. :) Here it is:

"Why Q Bike? Well, it's derived from the Quando, and like the police Q cars, it's capable of much more than it seems to be at first sight."
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coops

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 18, 2007
1,225
1
Manchester U.K.
clearer now

Thanks again for your answers flecc, thats much clearer now. I think my brain must have gone into info overload: I completely forgot about the wheel rotation energy thing :eek: kind of begs the question, what's the pro's/cons of larger diameter wheels in general (apart from the obvious one with hub motors of less geared reduction required), especially with wider tyres? But that's a whole other thread I think :D.

I remember when I got round to changing the knobblies on my MTB to semi-slicks: wow! the difference was amazing! It just felt like a different bike altogether! Swapping the Torq tyres for marathon plus would make a difference I'm sure, though probably not as big as knobblies to slicks :rolleyes:. Do you really notice the difference of the Q bike's marathon pluses over the standard kendas then? (I can feel my fingers itching to switch some more tyres now :D).

One thought occurs: that effect of larger diameter wheels taking more energy to accelerate them would make them inherently unsuitable for "bursts" of speed (by the time you've got a bit of speed up, you've got no energy left!) hence constant sustained speed/power is more the order of the day, and I guess thats one reason why the Torq is classed as a commuting bike.

A bit off-topic, but that could be another tip for economy of power use on the Torq: accelerating more slowly & smoothly could save some energy & help extend your range:).

Stuart.
 

allotmenteer

Pedelecer
Nov 21, 2006
230
0
Aldershot, Hampshire
Hi Paul

There were some similar motors around, but yours sounds different. Mine didn't have a band brake thread, just a plain steel drum.

Yes, definitely address the bike efficiency first.

For example, lash your motor into a club rider's slim tyred efficient bike and it will really motor. Add your power and it will take off even better yet.

Then switch it into a knobbly tyred full suspension mountain bike and you'll wonder what went wrong with the motor. Now pedal that and wonder where your strength went.

That's an extreme example, but there are degrees of that with every bike that's less than fully efficient.

I'll post some pics of my motor and will try to work out the gear reduction etc. I suppose most geared motors look similar inside as there aren't many different ways to design a motor.

Yes, the first thing I did was to put slicks on the bike and as you say the difference is astounding, probably the best and cheapest improvement you can make to an electric bike.

Paul
 

halfmedley

Pedelecer
Jan 2, 2007
155
4
Excellent stuff as always Flecc, thoroughly enjoyed reading about your Q bike.

Commuting to and fro on my ebike has made me aware of the compromises inherent in an 'off-the-shelf' machine. I was even beginning to wonder whether a converted regular bike into an e-regular might bring about a cycle better addressed to particular needs/specifications.

However project Q raised a particular thought: might there be some business in this? (Don't worry I'm not suggesting that you start churning out custom bikes for people, unless you'd like to..!)

Your Q bike clearly shows that an 'off-the-shelf' machine can be super-upgraded (above and beyond the usual tyre and saddle replacement) into something rather special at reasonable expense. So my thought was, perhaps a dealer might offer a similar service (and charge accordingly) alongside selling the standard factory stuff?
 

rsscott

Administrator
Staff member
Aug 17, 2006
1,399
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...So my thought was, perhaps a dealer might offer a similar service (and charge accordingly) alongside selling the standard factory stuff?
Kind of like a Motorsport or AMG division equivalent for electric bikes ;)

cheers
Russ

Russell Scott
Pedelecs UK
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,216
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kind of begs the question, what's the pro's/cons of larger diameter wheels in general (apart from the obvious one with hub motors of less geared reduction required), especially with wider tyres? But that's a whole other thread I think :D.
The balance generally comes down in favour of bigger wheels on bikes mainly because the dynamic forces are limited at bike speeds, and there's the very big advantage of manageable sprocket sizes. That's why the market has settled on the 26" to 28" size for almost a century now. That 60 tooth chainwheel on my bike is an example of the difficulty with small wheels. To get a higher gear than the 92" I'd have to use that freewheel with the 11 tooth sprocket giving me a 109" but suffering the 11 tooth disadvantages. But if loads are to be carried by a goods bike or a more universal bike like the Q, the small wheel is still a better choice in many ways, and there's big advantages for folders too, size and weight.

If the market was evenly balanced between large and small wheel, the small would have a price advantage too on wheels and tyres, plus the fact that we could have alternatives to spoked wheels more easily, replacing them in 20" or less sizes with motor cycle style alloys or composites.


Do you really notice the difference of the Q bike's marathon pluses over the standard kendas then? (I can feel my fingers itching to switch some more tyres now :D).
Very definitely, one of the three biggest efficiency gains as said in the website article, but the pressures need to be ok to realise the benefit. In the Q bike I use 60/65 lbs front and 55/60 lbs rear n the 1.75 tyres, but those pressures would give a harsh ride on the Torq's front wheel on poor surfaces because of it's front motor unsprung weight. So if forced to reduce pressures to 45 lbs by that, much of the tyre change gain would disappear into added rolling resistance. That's one of several reasons why I prefer a rear motor, despite it's ride gearing disadvantages, but they are reasons personal to my usage preferences and certainly not universally applicable.


One thought occurs: that effect of larger diameter wheels taking more energy to accelerate them would make them inherently unsuitable for "bursts" of speed (by the time you've got a bit of speed up, you've got no energy left!) hence constant sustained speed/power is more the order of the day, and I guess thats one reason why the Torq is classed as a commuting bike.

A bit off-topic, but that could be another tip for economy of power use on the Torq: accelerating more slowly & smoothly could save some energy & help extend your range.
You've got it in one Stuart. The Torq is far slower accelerating than the Quando, mainly through the optimum motor gearing in the 20" wheel, but with this component added. The Q bike adds another dimension due to the rider also adding more, and that gave me a very scary moment.

On the first occasion of leaving traffic lights with it, and fully prepared in the newly available 57" gear for the start of the lights grand prix, I gave the usual hefty shove down on the pedals with throttle snapped open. The result was the fastest e-bike take-off ever with the biggest sustained wheelie I've ever done on any bike. I don't know who was unnerved more, me or the competing car driver, but I think it was him, for he passively followed me all the way to a roundabout further along and only then drove slowly past peering at the bike.
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nigel

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 18, 2006
467
0
Nigel

BY halfmedley
So my thought was, perhaps a dealer might offer a similar service (and charge accordingly) alongside selling the standard factory stuff?

Thats a great ideal
i would love to buy that model now with the changes flecc has made it is now a good alround bike i hope:) flecc can maybe get other parties intrested in taking his project on to the next step.NIGEL.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Thanks Halfmedley. I'm sure there's potential for a manufacturer to market better like this for slightly more, hence my saying that I'd like eZee to do it.

But for a bike dealer it wouldn't be very practical because of the costs involved, making the end price prohibitive. My £286 was just the net parts cost, but if Id added my labour at a viable business rate it would multiply hugely.

There are some examples. The SP Brompton which has very few changes from the original at around £500 or so max, costs about £1200 from the specialist who produces it. There are a few folder fanatics who will pay that or even £1800 for a Moulton or the like, but I don't think we are yet at the stage of a commercially viable number of e-bike extreme enthusiasts, though some of us show signs of infection. :)

Referring to Russes comment, if the International or UK HPVA introduced e-bike racing classes and they became popular, it could be different.

(HPVA = Human Powered Vehicle Association, administrators of cycle sport for those machines not recognised by the UCI, recumbents etc.)
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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The folding electric bike most definitely has not come of age and there have been many poor models that have come to the market over the last 4 years that have not cut the mustard. Our company started with Folding Electric bikes and have always had a passion for them which has been put to the back burner for the last couple of years due to other developments as you are well aware. I know ezee have got a geared version on the drawing board and maybe this will ignite the flame to get it to the consumer more quickly.
Thanks very much for your kind comments Scott. You are absolutely right about electric folders, for the most part they have been truly the most dreadful of all the e-bike designs out there. There are some honourable exceptions, like a couple you've represented, the Panasonic and the Honda Stepcombo, both having a stab at a viable carryable bike, but technology can't at present realise that properly.

Accepting that they are mainly suited to car boot, caravan, yacht, private aircraft and the like, the most promising has been the Quando by far, with not a competitor in sight, but the lack of an ability for the rider to help through gears has held it back. I'm therefore delighted that eZee are still considering it, the spindle length having told me that they had already dabbled with the idea. I hope if realised that they don't only put it into the sprung version as that would severely limit it's uses vis a vis carrier load carrying and towing.
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Thanks very much Jeff, both for the comments and the great updated cartoon showing the rocket like take-off!

I've got the reward though, since it's so great to ride in this very hilly area that I'm on it every chance I get. Carrying loads uphill and 1 in 5 climbs have never been so ridiculously easy.

On the market in hilly areas this could get many more onto pedalled two wheels who just wouldn't contemplate it at present.
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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That Shed!

Scott and others have referred to my shed, and Jeff (Grandad) has included it in his cartoons.

But now I can't keep it back any more, and so I explode the bombshell! :D

Because I hate gardening and decorating, I choose to live in a flat and don't have either a shed or spare garage space.

The whole job was done in my flat. Angle grinding, tube bending, lathe work, yes welding as well, and even the spraying. The parts photos are on a kitchen surface, against wardrobe doors, over a square of old carpet or against a dark emulsioned wall, with the background colour of some changed in Photoshop on the computer. I have a "workshop" tall cupboard with a cross bench built into it to which my vice is attached and tools etc are kept.

Being from the trade of many years ago when fancy tools like wheel building jigs didn't exist, the wheel building was done the traditional way, in this case in the bike while sitting on the edge of my bed, but the general trade practice was an old pair of forks in a vice.

So now you know what I meant when I said "with limited facilities". :)
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,216
30,617
Hi

I hope Grandad can update his picture accordingly.

Hope your neighbours are understanding when you run a production line through your appartment. I am sure many quando owners will be knocking at your door for the latest F-Power technology.:D

Best Regards

50cycles
Scott
No problem Scott, I'm on the ground floor and contrary to the mythology about flat dwelling, Elizabeth, Karen, Michael & Danielle, Jamie and Jo, Martin and I enjoy the best of relationships and are all good friends.

I won't be too keen on repeating the Quando exercise though, given the work involved, but I do have a beady eye on the Torq though, with an even more radical idea. I need to muster the energy though, maybe it's one for next winter.
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redalpha3

Pedelecer
Oct 31, 2006
91
0
Absolutely first class project Flecc! Hope the machine is almost everything you wanted.:D

I've always thought that half of the problem in designing and building such a machine is knowing your own mind. When I'm on the flat I want speed. On hills I need good climbing ability. If I'm nearing the range limits of my battery I desperately want increased range. Your multi-purpose solution looks very promising. I'm seriously impressed.

As an aside, you must have very understanding neighbours. Would you like to swap?;)
 

coops

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 18, 2007
1,225
1
Manchester U.K.
flecc said:
The result was the fastest e-bike take-off ever with the biggest sustained wheelie I've ever done on any bike. I don't know who was unnerved more, me or the competing car driver, but I think it was him, for he passively followed me all the way to a roundabout further along and only then drove slowly past peering at the bike.
Ok, now I really want a Q bike :D ;) anything that can intimidate drivers has got to be good in my book :D

flecc said:
I do have a beady eye on the Torq though, with an even more radical idea
Hmmmmm.... I was going to ask about that flecc... you mentioned a project to make it go slower, with two big surprises? Well if its even more radical, if that means not for the faint hearted then I guess its not something many will try to repeat, but I'm intrigued nonetheless - can you give any more hints, or better still some information? :D
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Brilliant Jeff, I thought that might be your spies when I spotted the glint of sunlight on binocular lenses! :)

Thanks very much Pete. Re: the neighbours, there's an old saying about making your own luck. In the past over many years I've suffered difficult neighbours, but have developed a way of preventing that occurrence. Whenever a new neighbour moves in I immediately introduce myself and give them a very warm welcome and offer of any help required. I also seize any opportunity to be of some service to them, for example putting a chock in the sprung outer door jamb to help them when moving items in, and giving them a lift with heavy boxes and the like. When they've moved in they always have huge amounts of packing to dispose of, which I take to recycling for them.

Later I take any opportunity when they are passing in the hallway and another neighbour is around to introduce them by first name, so that everyone knows each other on first name only terms.

One going away for a few days? Feed their moggie etc, keep the letter box clear. Emergency, lost their doorkey, got a water leak, flat battery? Fix it or alleviate.

All makes for a happy and harmonious block.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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On the Torq possibility Stuart, I'll just say I'm speaking of about 1 or 2 mph slower at most, but with it better sustained. That may give you a clue to the one change that would bring that.

But that's not the radical bit, so the tease continues. :D
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