Pro Connect - Sheard Spoke - HELP !!!!!!!

[Mussels]

but wheels touch the ground, it the only bit that does, and our beautiful highways are littered with holes and debris and wheels go pear shaped and spokes break because of this occasionally! cycling fact of life...

But what I gather from experienced cycle couriers in London is that spokes breaking should be a rare event even on London's poor roads. The roads haven't got worse so maybe the increase in broken spokes is down to another reason.

 

[flecc]

The more spokes, the less trouble, and over 30 spokes is still the norm as any walk around a large dealers stock will show. That's why BMX bikes commonly have 48 spokes per wheel, to withstand the shock impacts.

Today's UK roads are in a very poor state and likely to remain that way, so the 36 spokes standard makes much more sense. The weight saving from using less is laughable, and certainly in no way compensates for the possible increase in trouble.

Smaller numbers of spokes are a fashion thing as remarked above, mainly found on sports bikes, and if the build quality is good enough they can be trouble free. However, in this forum this is a bit irrelevant since e-bikes are predominately utility bikes and used as such for commuting, shopping etc, very few used purely for leisure and almost never for on road sport.

That said, fewer spokes are not necessarily a problem and aren't a reason for not choosing a bike that's liked in other respects, since any initial problem if one occurs is easily correctable.
.

 

[dienamics]

But what I gather from experienced cycle couriers in London is that spokes breaking should be a rare event even on London's poor roads. The roads haven't got worse so maybe the increase in broken spokes is down to another reason.

yeah well, chances are most cycle couriers in London probably run custom built wheels, no how to ride a bike well enough to avoid damage and there most likely not going to be over weight...so yeah I imagine that they dont see much in the way of broken spokes.

But thats not to say they never break. I've replace many spokes for couriers, hard core roadies, mountain bikers.

As 'Properlegs' said, breaking spokes is a fact of life unfortunatly.

 

[proper legs]

spokes again

Anyone heard of the tour du france? big race in erm, france... 200 pro riders, 2500kms 105 years, 3 weeks in the saddle...

16 carbon spokes in the front wheel... 20 in the back! www.Mavic.com - Products - R-Sys Premium

bmx wheels that have 48 spoke are flatland/ freestyle bikes (google it)... downhill MTBs now run max 32 spokes in each wheel but more usually 28 spokes...

so... its the design of the wheels and the skill of the rider nowadays. not the amount of spokes!

 

[flecc]

There is a reason freestyle BMX wheels have 48 spokes, its becasue they are designed to take a beating.

Exactly the point I'm making, our present roads state giving our bikes a beating.

BMX race wheels on the other hand have lesser spokes to reduce weight, just like high end road bikes.

Again look at what I said, e-bikes are not race bikes, and the weight reduction of fewer spokes on an e-bike's weight is laughable.

so... its the design of the wheels and the skill of the rider nowadays. not the amount of spokes!

But why be bothered when 36 spokes do the job without the problem potential? What realistic advantage is there for an e-bike to have fewer, or for any other utility bike for that matter? The only one I see is fashion, since e-bikes aren't road racers or downhill racers. With their extra weight on very poor condition roads they do simulate what happens to BMX wheels though.
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[Mussels]

Anyone heard of the tour du france? big race in erm, france... 200 pro riders, 2500kms 105 years, 3 weeks in the saddle...

16 carbon spokes in the front wheel... 20 in the back! www.Mavic.com - Products - R-Sys Premium

That's nice, how many ebikes have carbon spokes?

 

[Mussels]

Firstly, freestyle BMX bikes take a beating in a totally different way. you dont see people on road bikes doing tail whips or back flips do you...

secondly, reducing the weight on an E bike makes perfect sence. Lighter weight = more efficent, increased range and better handling.

But If you'd rather ride a 30kg plus tank with 36 spokes then...good on you I suppose.

Someone who adds over 500g to each wheel by fitting Marathon Plus tyres isnt going to worry about the much smaller weight of a dozen spokes, I think most ebike users would go for practicality first especially if the roads are as bad as we are told.
What is the weight of 12 standard ebike spokes?

 

[flecc]

Firstly, freestyle BMX bikes take a beating in a totally different way.

Sorry, no they don't. Running across a pothole impacts the spokes in no different a way. An impact shock is an impact shock.

secondly, reducing the weight on an E bike makes perfect sence. Lighter weight = more efficent, increased range and better handling.

You clearly haven't thought this through. On the Pro Connect for 36 spokes, the extra spokes and nipples less the weight of the extra rim holes is some 80 grams per wheel, that's eight one-hundredths of a kilo. It would increase the nominal weight of the bike from 20.8 kilos to 20.9 kilos and would have absolutely no detectable effect on efficiency, range or handling.

A rider eating an energy boosting small banana before setting off adds twice that extra, a small energy boosting drink adds three times the extra weight of those spokes, so the extra weight is inconsequential.

But If you'd rather ride a 30kg plus tank with 36 spokes then...good on you I suppose.

As you see from the above, sufficient spokes for reliability don't make a 30kg tank. Of course I agree that as light as possible is desirable on a bike, but such a minute gain as in this case is only acceptable if there is no other loss.

The 36 spoke Agattu introduced last year has sold in large numbers with no spoke troubles, while their 24 spoke Pro Connect appearing recently in late spring has had at least two wheels with trouble already. A very small incidence, but ask those owners if they'd rather have a spoke problem or an extra eight one-hundredths of a kilo on the wheel and I know what the answer would be.
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[Mussels]

depends on spoke gauge, wheel and hub type. But put simply if its a 700c wheel running 36 spokes chances are its pretty low end, heavy and more likely to be pone to things like rusting spoke nipples and surface rust on both the spokes and the rim increasing the chance of spoke failure.

What has the number of spokes got to do with rusting?

 

[flecc]

Thanks for the update Mark, and I appreciate the difference with shorter spoke tensions, used myself in my 20" bike's wheel rebuild with some very high tensions.

But I still have a preference for over 30 spokes on e-bike and other utility bike road wheels, since they are more forgiving of poor road conditions and wheel build variations. As I've shown, the weight and dynamics gain of fewer is too small to be of consequence. Fine on a top race bike for competition and built to exacting standards, but even the very light Pro Connect weighs well over twice those.
.

 

[JamesC]

Firstly, freestyle BMX bikes take a beating in a totally different way. you dont see people on road bikes doing tail whips or back flips do you...

secondly, reducing the weight on an E bike makes perfect sence. Lighter weight = more efficent, increased range and better handling.

But If you'd rather ride a 30kg plus tank with 36 spokes then...good on you I suppose.

It's interesting to note that the Nexus 8 gear hub has been developed steadily by Shimano over the past few years, and gaining in popularity as its strength and reliability has improved.

From what I can see, the SG-8R25 hub and the WH-8R25 complete wheel were launched at about the same time a couple of years ago. This "redband" premium version of the hub had various upgrades incorporating needle roller bearings and better sealing against the elements.

The latest offering from the redband developments is the SG-8R36 hub, and the new range of Alfine hubs, designed with the same gear internals plus the facility for disk brakes.

There is growing interest in using these hubs on tougher terrain here.


Interestingly, the hubs have only been available as 32 or 36 spoke versions. Only the Shimano wheel as used on the ProConnect has used a 24 spoke version, and the 24 spoke wheel is not very widely available (not imported to the UK).

James

 

[wotwozere]

30+

Hi Flecc

Seems you are looking at this from an old fashioned point of view.
Thing have really changed since needing 30+ spokes.

thx

Bob

 

[Mussels]

What has the number of spokes got to do with rusting?

...didn't I just explain why?

I think you just told me that a 36 spoke wheel is cheap and nasty and will use mild steel spokes whilst a 24 spoke wheel is the premium that most people have and has stainless steel spokes.
Whether stainless is better than mild is a different discussion and has nothing at all to do with the number of spokes on a wheel.

 

[JamesC]

Hi Flecc

Seems you are looking at this from an old fashioned point of view.
Thing have really changed since needing 30+ spokes.

thx

Bob

Bob
Is there much evidence of the 24 spoke Nexus 8 being developed further ?

Many of the touring bikes that would use this hub still seem to favour >30 spokes in the wheel. Very often the spokes are lighter gauge, particularly when made in Europe rather than the Far East.

James

 

[burncycle]

Hi

The rear wheel on the pro connect is a shimano designed complete wheel package for nexus hub systems. it has 24 spokes arranged in a radial design on the non drive side and 2x design on the drive side. This is because of the size of the hub flange of the nexus hub and the design of the rim. shorter spokes can be tensioned higher and therefore the wheel has less spokes in the design.

These spokes are fine with the Proconnect as the weight is only a few kilos more than the conventional version, this will be more variable rider to rider than Pedelecs to Conventional style.

Flecc, we have sold double the amount of proconnects compared to the Agattu.

Once we receive the wheel back from elder we will determine the exact cause of this case and report back the results. In the meantime we will double check the tension of each spoke before it is delivered.

Regards

Mark
Technical Manager
50cycles

Thanks for that good reply Mark.

 

[flecc]

Hi Flecc

Seems you are looking at this from an old fashioned point of view.
Thing have really changed since needing 30+ spokes.

thx

Bob

As James has remarked Bob, not old fashioned in fact but what Shimano supply as the norm. As I've said earlier, walk around the stock in any large dealers and you'll see how commonplace 32 to 36 spoke wheels are.

Once again, less than 30 spokes exists almost entirely on road sport bikes of the kind used by the lycra brigade, and this is an e-bike forum dealing with bikes weighing two to four times as much and used primarily for utility and commuting purposes, working bikes in other words.

In that environment logic dictates the use of at least 32 spokes, there being no realisable advantage from using less on such heavy bikes. As I demonstrated above, 80 grams additional wheel weight has no relevance on such bikes.

E-bike riders don't generally road race or otherwise compete, but they do often carry large loads of shopping and other items, carry children on child seats, tow heavy trailers and otherwise give their bikes a tough time. They also maintain higher average speeds than unpowered utility bike riders so the bikes take more punishment in that respect too.

And even if my view was old fashioned, is old fashioned synonymous with not good? Old fashioned meant a prison population of one tenth of the present level, a youth population who scorned the use of knives as being for cowards, few people owning cars, most riding bikes to get about.

Seems to me that being old fashioned is entirely praiseworthy.
.

 

[flecc]

No problem Scott, as I remarked above, having fewer spokes is no reason for not buying a bike that's liked otherwise, and I have lots of faith in the Kalkhoff products.

My point is only questioning the logic of fewer spokes on any make of road bike that's not for sporting competition, there being no advantages other than the sporting image and maybe slightly easier wheel cleaning.
.

 

[JamesC]

Hi Flecc

You will be glad to know that these bikes are very heavily tested with weights and extreme vibrations for weeks before bringing them to the market. The Pro connect is purposely designed for the touring market which is renowned for carrying very heavy loads.

However we will send our report to Derby Cycles after we receive the wheel or photos. In the meantime we will double check the tension of each spoke before delivery.

Best regards

Scott

Thanks Scott. Support for the Shimano rear wheel in the 24 spoke configuration will need to come through the 50C/Derby Cycles route.

The Nexus 8 hub is working very well on my ProConnect and suits the bike well. I have not experienced any problems with the wheel or spokes, but spare parts that are specifc to the wheel are not readily available as yet from regular Shimano sources in the UK.

James

 

[proper legs]

more spokes

coupla reasons why BMX and mtbs bikes have more spokes... and their riders more fun!?

http://assets.loopd.com/RFS/36/e4e5e9f0-8882-4f72-95f1-64681c1f6fc3l.jpg

http://www.norconewsletter.com/content/images/06aug/flatland_trick.jpg

http://reviews.mtbr.com/files/2008/04/image0118.jpg


So i think the stresses on a wheel are somewhat different from a battery assisted ride to the annual alottment meeting eh?

 

[proper legs]

Old Fashioned?

...few people owning cars, most riding bikes to get about.

Seems to me that being old fashioned is entirely praiseworthy.
.

That would be bikes without electrical assistance then? not the ones you are all currently enjoying? the ones using modern technology developed by jonny foreigner...

Glad i dont remember the good old days! i will get back down the mine now for another 72 hour shift and catch the tram home with a bag of chips and a new suit for two bob and then man the ack ack gun all night....

take off them rosy glasses....