Prices of the electricity we use to charge

Ghost1951

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 2, 2024
1,584
624
Start of a commercial backlash? Or anti-competitive practices :confused:
That bike is illegal. He is being powered along at about 30 miles an hour.

I just looked it up. It has a 2kw motor!!! What a knacker that fellow is.

  • Fron and Back Dual 1000W Motor(total 2000W)
  • 52V 20AH Dual Battery (total 52V 40AH)
  • 34MPH Max Speed
  • Max Range 75 Miles Electric Mode (180 miles assist mode)
  • 20×4 Inch Fat Bike Tires
  • 7-speed Shimano Mechanical Shifting
  • Dual Hydraulic Brakes
  • Fron and Rear Dual Suspension
 
Last edited:

Ghost1951

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 2, 2024
1,584
624
What ever can or can't be done, the brakes are failing in EVs, as can be witnessed by the MOT failures and advisories.

I just typed "electric car" into Ebay. I looked down the page for the first fully electric one that wasn't a Tesla and had a picture of a wheel. This is it, 15 down from the top. Most of those above it are hybrids or not EVs. Look at the disc in the photo of the wheel. I rest my case.
By the way, that car passed its mot with no advisories in July 2024. That said, it has done about 600 miles since then and the disc is corroded, and somewhat grooved. You can look up mot history of any car on the mot eebsite if you have the reg. number.
 

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
6,812
3,146
Telford
By the way, that car passed its mot with no advisories in July 2024. That said, it has done about 600 miles since then and the disc is corroded, and somewhat grooved. You can look up mot history of any car on the mot eebsite if you have the reg. number.
The point is that you can see the corrosion and scoring of the disc that you don't see on a normally used car. That was the first and only one I looked at. Try it yourself and see what the others are like. I get that same problem because I often don't use my car for three months at a time, and when I next use it, the wheels rumble and the brakes hardly work at the first junction I come to. It clears after I use the brake hard a few times. Electric cars and cars used like mine need stainless steel discs, like you get on motorbikes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Woosh

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,188
30,597
Here's what Google AI says in response to "Does the new nissan leaf need the brakes to stop":
AI Overview

No, the Nissan Leaf doesn't always need the brakes to stop because it has a number of features that assist with braking.
One day perhaps you'll learn not to argue with someone who knows and owns the car in question. Google AI is effectively wrong on the key points:

  • e-Pedal
    This system allows the driver to accelerate and brake with one pedal. When the e-Pedal is activated, the car slows down and stops smoothly when the accelerator pedal is released. The e-Pedal can be turned on or off by pulling the e-Pedal switch.
The reality is that the system in normal driving applies the brakes lightly regardless anyway. That is what keeps the discs polished as I've already told you and is also the reason for the criticism of it that I've also told you about. It does not have the ability to regenerative brake only to a standstill or anything like it. When the upper arc of the accelerator pedal action is used even without releasing it, the brakes are progressively applied. In effect the brake pedal action is superimposed in reverse above the accelerator pedal action. The system is incapable of an emergency stop. That has to be manual. If Google AI read the manual it would know all this.

  • Regenerative brakes
    When the accelerator pedal is released, the regenerative brakes decelerate the car more quickly.

I've already told you this, it applies in all driving modes, not just e-pedal. But its the lightest of the regen braking mode choices

  • Intelligent Emergency Braking (IEB)
    This system can stop the car if it detects that it's about to hit another car or if it's too close to a wall while backing into a parking spot. The IEB system is automatically turned on when the EV system restarts.
Correct, and also a damn nuisance when it gets it wrong, as it can often do. Owners like myself quickly learn driving tactics and the selectable system settings which help prevent the system errors occurring. It's now several years since the last time it did it to me.

  • Hydraulic brake system
    This system is automatically activated to keep the car stationary after it comes to a complete stop.
Correct.

The brake pedal can be used for emergency or aggressive braking, or when the power switch is in a position other than ON or READY to drive

Correct.
.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Woosh

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
6,812
3,146
Telford
One day perhaps you'll learn not to argue with someone who knows and owns the car in question. Google AI is effectively wrong on the key points:

  • e-Pedal
    This system allows the driver to accelerate and brake with one pedal. When the e-Pedal is activated, the car slows down and stops smoothly when the accelerator pedal is released. The e-Pedal can be turned on or off by pulling the e-Pedal switch.
The reality is that the system in normal driving applies the brakes lightly regardless anyway. That is what keeps the discs polished as I've already told you and is also the reason for the criticism of it that I've also told you about. It does not have the ability to regenerative brake only to a standstill or anything like it. When the upper arc of the accelerator pedal action is used even without releasing it, the brakes are progressively applied. In effect the brake pedal action is superimposed in reverse above the accelerator pedal action. The system is incapable of an emergency stop. That has to be manual. If Google AI read the manual it would know all this.

  • Regenerative brakes
    When the accelerator pedal is released, the regenerative brakes decelerate the car more quickly.

I've already told you this, it applies in all driving modes, not just e-pedal. But its the lightest of the regen braking mode choices

  • Intelligent Emergency Braking (IEB)
    This system can stop the car if it detects that it's about to hit another car or if it's too close to a wall while backing into a parking spot. The IEB system is automatically turned on when the EV system restarts.
Correct, and also a damn nuisance when it gets it wrong, as it can often do. Owners like myself quickly learn driving tactics and the selectable system settings which help prevent the system errors occurring. It's now several years since the last time it did it to me.

  • Hydraulic brake system
    This system is automatically activated to keep the car stationary after it comes to a complete stop.
Correct.

The brake pedal can be used for emergency or aggressive braking, or when the power switch is in a position other than ON or READY to drive

Correct.
.
So yes, it's crap then. Rusty brakes are a right nuicance.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,362
16,869
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
So yes, it's crap then. Rusty brakes are a right nuicance.
I suppose it's not a big problem, especially if you are already aware.
 

Ghost1951

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 2, 2024
1,584
624
Saneagle said:
So yes, it's crap then. Rusty brakes are a right nuicance.
Looks like all you need do, is make sure you use the traditional brakes now and again. In that, it is like any new vehicle, you need to do things a bit differently. With mine, I need to switch off the automatic engine stop which re-establishes itself every time the car is switched on, even though it was set to be disabled last time I used it. Way back in the 1920s, drivers of cars with automatic engine lubrication had to get out of the habit of turning on oil taps and working hand pumps to lubricate the engine. Riders of motorcycles had to get used to changing gear with their foot rather than a hand lever mounted on the tank.

Technology changes - live with it.

You must have been traumatised when the gear change on motorbikes swapped from right foot operation to left... I was too. I kept trying to change gear with the brake pedal and braking with the gear lever - it was a problem for about five minutes....

Just be glad you aren't flying airliners which have ENTIRELY changed in the last ten years.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: flecc

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
6,812
3,146
Telford
I suppose it's not a big problem, especially if you are already aware.
Good point, well presented. Unfortunately, many people are not aware, as can be seen by that Ebay listing and all the reports from the dealers. The EV owners probably think they're saving the planet by not using their brakes, in the same way that I drive gently with anticipation to get more mpg from my van.

I pointed this out so that people can become aware. Next time you speak to an EV owner you can talk to them about it, then they'll become aware, and so on, which is much better than trying to deny that the problem exists, like Flecc does.
Looks like all you need do, is make sure you use the traditional brakes now and again. In that, it is like any new vehicle, you need to do things a bit differently. With mine, I need to switch off the automatic engine stop which re-establishes itself every time the car is switched on, even though it was set to be disabled last time I used it. Way back in the 1920s, drivers of cars with automatic engine lubrication had to get out of the habit of turning on oil taps and working hand pumps to lubricate the engine. Riders of motorcycles had to get used to changing gear with their foot rather than a hand lever mounted on the tank.

Technology changes - live with it.

You must have been traumatised when the gear change on motorbikes swapped from right foot operation to left... I was too. I kept trying to change gear with the brake pedal and braking with the gear lever - it was a problem for about five minutes....

Just be glad you aren't flying airliners which have ENTIRELY changed in the last ten years.
You seem to be implying that I have a problem with EV brakes. I don't have an electric car and I don't plan to get one in the near future, so it doesn't bother me at all, therefore I won't have to "live with it". I'm merely stating facts. The facts are that dealers are reporting the problem and the first one I checked on Ebay has evidence of it.

I started with British bikes, then swapped over to Japanese ones in 1977. It didn't take me long to adapt. I remember making some mistakes in the beginning. Around 1994, I started restoring and riding British bikes again, though I used a Honda VFR750 and BMW R1000RT for my serious travelling, so I was regularly swapping from one to other every day. Somehow, my brain just knew what to do as soon as I sat on them. I never made a mistake pressing the wrong lever or the wrong direction. At the time, I thought that a bit weird, and it made me think about how the my brain would know to do that, as if there was some sort of initialisation routine each time I sat on a motorbike.

Regarding EV brakes. You have to understand that most drivers haven't a clue how they work, and even if the dealer told them to use the brakes from time to time, they probably wouldn't understand, which is why the problem exists of seized calipers and rusty and scored discs. We're technical people and, after discussing it, have an understanding of how it all works and what the problem is, so we wouldn't suffer from it. There's no point in trying to deny many people and cars are going to experience it. Do you think that the old lady across the road, who drives an EV, knows anything about it. I'll ask her next time I see her. Unfortunately, she keeps her car in the garage, so I can't inspect it right now.

We get a lot of parents parking in my street to pick up their kids from school, so I'll do a survey next week if the weather's OK to see the extent of the problem. If you go into town, have a look at the parked EVs for yourself.

Here's another one. look at the disc in the back wheel of picture 2:
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: esuark

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,188
30,597
Looks like all you need do, is make sure you use the traditional brakes now and again.
Except that we Leaf owners and most other e-car owners don't have to, since their systems look after that perfectly. It's mainly only owners of certain Tesla models who have that worry, just one of the many reasons I would never own any Tesla.

In that, it is like any new vehicle, you need to do things a bit differently. Way back in the 1920s, drivers of cars with automatic engine lubrication had to get out of the habit of turning on oil taps and working hand pumps to lubricate the engine. Riders of motorcycles had to get used to changing gear with their foot rather than a hand lever mounted on the tank.
Still had to get back into those habits for three more decades after the 1920s, since the severe shortage of vehicles caused by WW2 and beyond meant those venerable vehicles were still precious. Our general purpose works 250cc BSA had a manual pilgrim oil pump, grease nipples on the guides of the exposed o/h valves, tank gear change lever, handlebar advance retard lever and handlebar mixture control. Riding it was a full time occupation.
.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,188
30,597
much better than trying to deny that the problem exists, like Flecc does.
There certainly is a problem for the motor trade, in part in the sheer reliability of e-cars, but it predates them a long way back into i.c. cars.

Remember the Mini, the real one in 1959, not the BMW fake. Service interval with oil and filter change at 3000 miles and a long list of things to attend to on every service. Just look at the way services simplified and their intervals extended over the years on i.c. cars and the big increases in high mileage reliablity over the following decades. Then compare those with today's EVs, for example my Leaf's schedule, every year or 18000 miles in the UK, but more honestly 24 months or 36000 miles in the more consumer aware USA. The base annual schedule is so simple on the current Leaf with only one physical action that Nissan UK at one point cut the service price from £125 to £99, causing a storm of protest from dealers.

Or this from Tesla:

"Your Tesla vehicle does not require annual maintenance or regular fluid changes. Check your owner's manual for latest maintenance recommendations for your vehicle."

All this is having its effect on the trade who are finding it ever more difficult to survive and we have a microcosm of the effect of the overall problem here in Croydon. Our most honest car repair business having three full time mechanics and one part time mechanic and MOT tester, all older long serving, threw in the towel and shut down completely by retiring, handing their customer base and phone number to another older man's honest business. But a year later he followed suit and retired, giving up in the face of disappearing viable business. Even when e-cars do need repair, there's a severe shortage of people with the necessary knowledge beyond just one make or model.

And of course it's not only the loss of maintenance and mechanical repairs, the accident repair business is suffering similarly as the proportion of accident write offs rapidly increases. Today's cars are not designed to be repaired after an accident, they are designed to preserve the passenger compartment in an accident instead, to the cost of all else.

You are on a very sticky wicket if you try to prove that any of today's cars are less reliable and more troublesome than formerly, especially EVs.
.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Woosh

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,362
16,869
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
Service interval with oil and filter change at 3000 miles and a long list of things to attend to on every service.
My wife got stung everytime she gets the car serviced by the main agent.
 

Ghost1951

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 2, 2024
1,584
624
Yes - there are a lot of mechanically dim owners these days - its certainly true. Mechanical nowse is a rare thing these days, which wasn't true before -say in the late sixties and seventies last century. Most people who had a car did a lot of their own servicing. Back then, my motorbikes would have been better off if I hadn't to be truthful. I did things so badly that they broke down because of my 'tune ups', but I was just a young lad with no idea who was keen to 'fix' things up.

Best advice I got from an old boy was to stop meddling inside engines that were fine and just to do service items - especially oil changes. He used the good old term, 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it.' Previous to this, I was always pulling the top end off motorbikes and testing the con rods for big end wear, then putting them back together - badly.
 
Last edited:

Ghost1951

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 2, 2024
1,584
624
Service interval on my new car is 2 years or 24,000 miles. Petrol engine. Skoda.
 
  • Like
Reactions: flecc

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,888
6,499
we just got a skoda on mobility and will get it in 3 weeks ;)
 

AndyBike

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 8, 2020
1,388
588
There are trump's followers who believe every word trump has said, some in the hurricane areas wouldn't claim disaster relief money. They believe all the money has gone to migrants and they would lose their house to FEMA if they claim relief.
Trump said yesterday that the town of Charleroi, PA, population 4200, got invaded by Haitians, population went up 2,000%!
It turns out that the town recruited 800 Haitians, not 80,000. That's the kind of misinformation spread on social media.
They're completely caught up in the curse of the cult of personality, and Trump could do anything and they would still follow him.
We've seen how in some religious cults across the world and in the US, of parents pretty much offering their young children to the cult leader, so strong is their commitment, which is frightening really.

Butt its frightening in another way, in that many of those members will become assassins if called upon, and even do such things themselves if they feel their leader is threatened.("Will someone rid me of this turbulent priest")
This then affects their chosen messianic who becomes emboldened to commit acts, knowing there will be no consequences.

I'm tempted to put a bet on, that if Trump wins, that he is assassinated before his term of office is complete.
The US has had 4 such assassinations, with a further 3 having survived being shot in the attack.
We've had 2 on Trump already, plus a possible third, and he's not even in office.
A fatal attack could even come from his own entourage, and we've seen that happen too in parts of the world, even in Europe.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,188
30,597
My wife got stung everytime she gets the car serviced by the main agent.
The motor trade has always been the same. They first learnt their dishonesty in the 1920s and to a large extent have never changed since. I left it after ten years.

But as my last post shows there is a reason for their high service pricing, it's necessary to survive. The difference between the market here and the USA illustrates.

The USA dealer enjoys large sales of new cars in their market so makes his money that way. The USA makes buying a new car very easy. Several years ago Ford released a new sports utility model on tick with no deposit and the first payment five years later. Everyone can afford one of those!

Our new car sales level is very low, we make our cars last 23 years on average and 85% of sales are of used cars. In the USA servicing income is unimportant and their manufacturers also illustrate that big difference. Over a decade ago GM released two models, a Cadillac and a Buick, with their first service at 100,000 miles. Here our makers double up the service schedules and insist annual servicing is essential, some even saying their cars need six monthly inspection checks.
.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Woosh

AndyBike

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 8, 2020
1,388
588
the usa has a open boarder same as us
We don't have an open border, it was pretty much shut by the tories. Might have heard of the obstacle called the English channel, whereas in the US it is a direct border.

Actually the attitude is similar to that of Australia, in that the US, like Australia, was stolen in an act of genocide, and its inhabitants are made up of immigrants, but are now against immigration and show contempt for the natives of the land they stole.
 

Ghost1951

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 2, 2024
1,584
624
When I bought my new car in February, the guy told me they make all their money on second hand cars and servicing when it comes around and that the mark up on new cars is negligible. There is a big wack of tax in the selling price one way and another. I believe him. The same guy sold me my last car in 2010.
 

AndyBike

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 8, 2020
1,388
588
Fron and Back Dual 1000W Motor(total 2000W)
Twin motors ?. Check this offering from Yamaha.
I doubt its legal in the UK though..
yamaha-y-01w-awd.jpg
 

Ghost1951

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 2, 2024
1,584
624
We don't have an open border, it was pretty much shut by the tories. Might have heard of the obstacle called the English channel, whereas in the US it is a direct border.

Actually the attitude is similar to that of Australia, in that the US, like Australia, was stolen in an act of genocide, and its inhabitants are made up of immigrants, but are now against immigration and show contempt for the natives of the land they stole.
You need to think again about this post. It is full of ludicrous falsehoods. What re-education camp have you been in for brainwashing?

1. The Tories shut the border? That is insane. We saw the biggest influx EVER under the Tories. FACT. Around 700,000 net inward migration last year.... Some shut border that is. 40,000 came over the channel on waterwings and a prayer and we are paying about £4.3 Bn to house them (2023 figure). None of the irregular arrivals have any right to be here. They came from a safe place - either France or Belgium. They can not need asylum from such places.

2. The aboriginal people of North and South America and of Australia came there themselves as migrants - of course they did and they were at war with one another constantly. The European arrivals did the same and were better armed so in conflicts they won. That isn't genocide.

How did your thinking get that disordered? There is such a thing as REALITY. You should try it.