Prices of the electricity we use to charge

[Benjahmin]

Don'tcha just love nutty garden shed british inventor/engineers.
Looks liks he's using a direct drive bike motor as generator on one of the versions. I've got one of those in my shed mmmmm !

 

[saneagle]

It doesn't look good for EVs. Ford are shutting downsome production. GM are in trouble. Toyota has cancelled plans for battery production and are betting on hydrogen, Mercedes have 12 months of stock and nobody is buying their cars, Porche are offering discounts for the first time in history on their EVs, and Landrovers are virtually uninsurable. Teslas have been doing well, but Elon has upset the WEF, so they're starting to target his operation all over the world with regulations and other hurdles. Something is going to give under the strain very soon. What will it be?

 

[matthewslack]

Perhaps the rise of cheaper Chinese brands and the death of Western car production.

Perhaps a 'second wave' of common-sense-in-the-face-of-a-climate-crisis lighter, smaller, cheaper designs...

 

[Woosh]

It doesn't look good for EVs. Ford are shutting downsome production. GM are in trouble. Toyota has cancelled plans for battery production and are betting on hydrogen, Mercedes have 12 months of stock and nobody is buying their cars, Porche are offering discounts for the first time in history on their EVs, and Landrovers are virtually uninsurable. Teslas have been doing well, but Elon has upset the WEF, so they're starting to target his operation all over the world with regulations and other hurdles. Something is going to give under the strain very soon. What will it be?

That will be all western ice car manufacturers. They are selling into a smaller market place with prices above and performance under electric cars. Apparently, some companies offer to convert your car to electric in a day.

 

[flecc]

Something is going to give under the strain very soon. What will it be?

Maybe the critics and naysayers search for negatives?

A quarter of all UK monthly car sales in 2023 have been battery only EVs, despite the deadline for IC sales being moved to over a decade away.

The Tesla Model Y is on course to become the best-selling car across Europe in 2023 as it clocks more than 209,000 registrations between January and October. Registrations of the Model Y have accounted for 13% of all electric car registrations across the continent this year, according to data from Jato Dynamics. 30 Nov 2023.

This is the gloomiest news here:

Sales of new electric cars in Britain are slowing down, according to figures from the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT). Only 38,116 battery-powered EVs were sold in September, down from 39,315 in March. That's just 3% down from the all time record month, so scarcely a meaningful drop !!

That's the trouble with the critics, lacking a truly comprehensive knowledge of the subject so often missing the obvious.

Such as how happy the makers are with current EV sales which have profit margins they could only dream of over the last 50 years from the dominant, often loss making, small IC cars they been making and competing with. Not only now a future of more profit for less work but pleasing most of their governments too, who have long wanted restraint on the scale of private car ownership and usage.

The overwhelming presence of cars makes the public think car use has been growing, but it's the opposite so governments are getting their wish granted. Here's why:

Over the last 50 years average UK car mileage has dropped by almost 40%, mainly due to four factors.

That, together with lower mileage and sometimes better public transport meaning less need for a car, has been greatly reducing car ownership in the most congested urban areas.

Due to higher costs, especially for insurance, our young have increasingly been turning away from car ownership.

In 2022, a total of 1.61 million new cars were registered in the UK. This figure is the lowest since 1992, even falling short of those recorded in 2020 and 2021, when the UK was significantly affected by COVID restrictions, automotive supply chain issues and an ongoing global semiconductor chip shortage. 27 Apr 2023.

Diesel car sales are in the doldrums, petrol car sales are well down, only EV sales have been continuously growing with BEV overtaking Hybrid long ago and continuously increasing that gap.

We are going electric whether anyone likes it or not, but at the end of the process there will be fewer driving and far fewer actually owning a car.
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[flecc]

Perhaps a 'second wave' of common-sense-in-the-face-of-a-climate-crisis lighter, smaller, cheaper designs...

Nice thought, but it needs a return to the lighter, smaller people of yesteryear, who didn't need cars to be 7 feet wide and so high.

It's amusing in "Bangers and Cash" on Channel W (freeview 27) when today's tall fatsos struggle to get into the much older cars they auction.
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[saneagle]

That will be all western ice car manufacturers. They are selling into a smaller market place with prices above and performance under electric cars. Apparently, some companies offer to convert your car to electric in a day.

Converted cars, like ebikes are virtually uninsurable. It's not ICE cars that are in trouble. If you go to buy a new car now, the salesman will put you under tremendous pressure to buy an electric car. They're all on incentives to try to shift the stock of electric cars. I think what's happened is that people are in two camps. You have those that want to do something for the climate because they think the planet will otherwise blow up and those that don't believe in it. Along with that, all companies, through their ESG scores, are put under pressure to use EVs for their fleets. For most people there are no savings from EVs now, and the cost to buy, along with the higher running costs, have taken away any persuasion for the neutral people.

I think those that will buy EVs have mostly already got them. Those that haven't, don't want them, so the sales bubble for EVs has now burst. The only way it'll change will be from external interventions.

Personally, what I'd like to see is much smaller and lighter EVs for running around town, which is what most people use them for, as they're not really suitable for serious travelling. It still doesn't make sense to do the school run in an electric Rangerover or Nissan Leaf (if it still has the range for it).

 

[saneagle]

Nice thought, but it needs a return to the lighter, smaller people of yesteryear, who didn't need cars to be 7 feet wide and so high.

It's amusing in "Bangers and Cash" on Channel W (freeview 27) when today's tall fatsos struggle to get into the much older cars they auction.
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If somebody made a 60v 20 mile range single seater for about £5000, I'd buy one for shopping when it's snowing. There's something wrong, when I can buy the top spec diesel Peugeot Partner for £18,000, when a Microlino with no suspension or heating that works, a crappy 50 mile range and a top speed of 56 mph costs the same amount.

 

[flecc]

If somebody made a 60v 20 mile range single seater for about £5000, I'd buy one for shopping when it's snowing. There's something wrong, when I can buy the top spec diesel Peugeot Partner for £18,000, when a Microlino with no suspension or heating that works, a crappy 50 mile range and a top speed of 56 mph costs the same amount.

But you are making a weird comparison. The Microlino isn't the future, people dont want that sort of apology for a car. They want something like a Peugeot Partner equivalent electric, but at the same price, but of course they cannot have that.

The reason is simple of course, they have to buy the battery, the equivalent of the next seven to ten years fuel, as well as the car, all in one lump. That was OK when electricity was very much cheaper so the ultimate cost was similar, but now it is no longer.

So the equivalent EV is much more expensive, which as I've repeatedy explained happens to suit makers and governments, so that is our future.

It's been inevitable for decades that the car market had to drastically change, the makers competing to make a loss on the cheap smaller cars the public want has been insane ever since the Mini making a loss on every one ever sold.

The catalyst for the change happening now is two fold, the advent of the practical EV giving the excuse and way out, plus GM walking out of the small IC car loss making madness, with Ford seriously considering doing the same.

The motor industry has been the walking dead for decades, desperately trying to find a way out of the traps it built for itself but failing. The Stellantis merging route isn't the answer, it's just digging a deeper hole. For a long time now making EVs will be, including for Stellantis.
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[saneagle]

But you are making a weird comparison. The Microlino isn't the future, people dont want that sort of apology for a car. They want something like a Peugeot Partner equivalent electric, but at the same price, but of course they cannot have that.

The point of the comparison is to show what you get for your money. The electric Peugeot partner is £31,00 and can only do about 150 miles as long as you don't use the lights, heating, aircon or wipers, and it isn't winter.

I've been watching lots of Youtube on EVs from both EVangelists and normal people. I've figured out it's not the cost of charging you have to worry about. Just about every EV driver I see explains that the time for charging isn't a problem because they go to Costa for some food and a drink while they take a break. On your own, the cost of that must be about the same as the cost to charge, but if you have a family, you'd need to take out a mortgage. What do parents do when they have a car full of kids and have to stop to re-charge?

 

[saneagle]

Recent statement from VW CEO: " With many of our pre-existing cars, and high costs, We are no longer competitive as a brand. We're facing strong customer reluctance in the EV sector. The roof is on fire. This is the final wake-up call".

There must be a lot of their cars catching fire then for the roof to be on fire.

There was only half the demand for their cars this year compared with last year. This is the same as what I'm hearing from other brands.

If less people buy EVs, there could be more electricity for domestic supply, which would force the price down for charging our electric bikes, so it's not all bad.

 

[Nealh]

Converting an ice car has little or no change in vfd, afaik it still is vfd'd as it originally was built as .

 

[flecc]

I've been watching lots of Youtube on EVs from both EVangelists and normal people. I've figured out it's not the cost of charging you have to worry about. Just about every EV driver I see explains that the time for charging isn't a problem because they go to Costa for some food and a drink while they take a break. On your own, the cost of that must be about the same as the cost to charge, but if you have a family, you'd need to take out a mortgage. What do parents do when they have a car full of kids and have to stop to re-charge?

Agreed, it's all the costs making an e-car much dearer than an IC car now, just as I've pointed out, and why there will be much less car ownership in future.

That's the whole point for many and I've never hidden it.

But it's a very slow process. As I said to you above, 1.6 million new cars were sold in the UK in 2022, but there were approximately 6.89 million used cars sold in the UK in 2022, still above their 2020 sales volumes. So it's only having an effect on less than a quarter of people actually changing a car.

Which doesn't matter since it normally take 23 years to turn over the entire UK car fleet anyway. It will still take that long, but with less cars sold and less people ending up owning them, just as governments and all the environmentally inclined hope.

And as I've also consistently said, the industry will still make more money then they have been doing for many decades now, though some still have to wake up to that fact and change their operation suitably.
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[saneagle]

Converting an ice car has little or no change in vfd, afaik it still is vfd'd as it originally was built as .

You have to report any modifications from standard to the insurance company. If you don't tell them and have an accident, they won't pay. I doubt that it'll make a difference if you claim for a stone cracking your windscreen, or you might also get away with it if you park next to an EV in the airport, and the EV catches fire and melts your car completely, like in Luton, so they never know you'd converted it, but when the battery catches fire either randomly or from an collision, it's going to be a bit awkward.

Another thing that might be a bit tricky is when they have to do the MOT emissions test for its registered class of vehicle. What's the MOT guy going to write down - "Forgot to do it, but I'm sure it'll be OK", " Couldn't find the exhaust".

 

[flecc]

Recent statement from VW CEO: " With many of our pre-existing cars, and high costs, We are no longer competitive as a brand. We're facing strong customer reluctance in the EV sector.

There was only half the demand for their cars this year compared with last year.

You just are not listening, half the demand but all the existing profit or more, exactly as I keep saying. Where's the problem?

VW do have a separate problem though, from the outset they have made a complete mess of this change to EVs, entirely their own fault through the same arrogance and complacency they displayed with "dieselgate".
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[flecc]

Another thing that might be a bit tricky is when they have to do the MOT emissions test for its registered class of vehicle. What's the MOT guy going to write down - "Forgot to do it, but I'm sure it'll be OK", " Couldn't find the exhaust".

This is done by taking down the V5C registration document and substituting it with the EV documents. Generally, any vehicle, be it brand new, retrofitted with a kit, rebuilt or radically altered, must be registered accordingly with the DVLA (Driver & Vehicle Licensing Agency).
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[saneagle]

This is done by taking down the V5C registration document and substituting it with the EV documents. Generally, any vehicle, be it brand new, retrofitted with a kit, rebuilt or radically altered, must be registered accordingly with the DVLA (Driver & Vehicle Licensing Agency).
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You're not reading properly. That's exactly the point I made. If you re-register, you can't insure easily. If you don't, you can't pass the MOT. Retro-fits would give you great difficulty whatever you do.

A couple of years ago, insurance wasn't such a problem, but now they're all scared of fires and safety issues.

 

[flecc]

You're not reading properly. That's exactly the point I made. If you re-register, you can't insure easily. If you don't, you can't pass the MOT. Retro-fits would give you great difficulty whatever you do.

I am reading just fine, I didn't deny that there is a cost. All EV insurance is much more expensive than for ICs, all part of the higher costs for them now that I've already acknowledged.

But it won't stop the process of them continuing to take over the market.
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[soundwave]

a electric car is for Christmas not for life and like apple crap a throw away item and unfixable junk

just look a rolls Royce u crash one of those and any damage is a right off even if it could be fixed they wont sell you anything to repair it so 1 million quid down the tip.

buy 2030 the middle class wont be able to afford any car anyway as thats the plan

 

[guerney]

buy 2030 the middle class wont be able to afford any car anyway as thats the plan

On the bright side, there will be fewer potholes for us pedelecers to contend with... unless the only other vehicles on the roads are tanks driven by the Illuminati...