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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,128
30,555
If the ice were really going to melt, they wouldn't need 6 new icebreakers, would they?
Missing the point yet again. It is precisely because climate change is starting to open the N/W passage that there is now a race to claim territorial rights. The USA is far behind Russia in Ice Breakers, hence the panic now to catch up. Remember Russia has already claimed possession of the North Pole with an implanted flag on the sea floor there, so they are way ahead of all the other polar nations.
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Ghost1951

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 2, 2024
1,381
491
Missing the point yet again. It is precisely because climate change is starting to open the N/W passage that there is now a race to claim territorial rights. The USA is far behind Russia in Ice Breakers, hence the panic now to catch up. Remember Russia has already claimed possession of the North Pole with an implanted flag on the sea foor there, so they are way ahead of all the other polar nations.
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The problem of 'missing the point' arises because some folks are completely closed off to ideas that don't suit them. They are not so much trying to learn something, but are set on massaging what they already think through finding any indicator which supports their established view and ignoring or dismissing every other.

So when I pointed out yesterday that NASA has reliable data on the temperature across the whole planet made every single day by a fleet of calibrated monitoring satellites, the answer fired back was 'Who controls NASA?' The mind set, seems rooted in ruling out ANY and EVERY source that does not support what the individuals already believe in. It is almost a 'religious' sort of outlook, like my old Dad, warning me when I was eighteen, that it was a 'sin' to doubt the beliefs of the faith he had brought me up in. If you rule out any source of information that points in ways you do not like, you are bound to remain in a bubble of error. There are people here who really believe there is a huge conspiracy to deceive them. There is a conspiracy - it is their own.

I know I am a pretty cantankerous and argumentative person, but I have always been delighted to find new information which changes the way I see the world. I spent quite a long time researching alternatives to human induced climate change, such as examining the period of the mini ice age (Maunder Minimum) and theories that solar activity might change our climate.

These ideas are at first look, quite reasonable, because many stars are unstable in their output. Ours though is VERY stable, which is probably why we are here in the first place on a planet which is literally teaming with life. So I had to abandon my objections, because they did not work. YES... there are plenty of non human causes of climate change in the history of the planet - absolutely massive ones, but they do not account for the current situation. Of course, as I have said before, I condemn the panic that some sources spread about a world burning up, or turning into a hellscape like Venus is. Those have no basis. Life will go on as it existed here in the Jurassic and Cretaceous periods when the mean global temperature was perhaps 25c and not 15c as now, but it may not be life like we see now. The only land animals then were huge reptiles.

If people don't want to learn and won't change their minds and openly examine evidence in a dispassionate way they are running up a blind alley. Had that been the case for our ancestors we would still be asking doctors to bleed us with leeches, applying poultices to the sick and having the kind of early death rates they saw in the Middle Ages. We would also never have accepted new technology and would be riding about on horseback or in carts and the majority would have a horizon about five miles from where they were born. We would still be burning witches - and oh... It is Halloween today! :)
 
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,213
16,815
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
Sorry, wrong, even the "sceance-tists" agree that most greenhouse effect is due to water vapour, whether invisible or visible clouds.
The amount varies because they cannot measure it, it is all Estimated from "Models".
"It's good to get a job in Meteorology, because one can be wrong more than half the time, and still not get fired!" :D
Climate models are built on flux dynamics, then verified by satellites. The problem is while we can measure the amount of irradiance from the sun or the amount of heat from fossil burning etc quite precisely, the current models are still not good enough when back testing against fossil records and recent weather to the point of being able to predict storms, flood in the next year to next 20 years.
The difficulty arises from not knowing exactly how much ice / super cooled water in the clouds. Ice reflects more sunlight than super cooled water. That problem will be solved in the next few years. In the meantime, you should know that hotter weather increases the proportion of super cooled water in clouds and that's a more floods and storms.