Petition to legalizing throttle only eBikes for the disabled

[PeterPi]

My Mountain Bike is fifteen years old. I fitted a Sinclair motor and lead acid battery pack, which I removed from an earlier bike, just after I bought it. I used it with various home build mods over the years. Where do I stand wrt "grandfather rights"?

 

[flecc]

My Mountain Bike is fifteen years old. I fitted a Sinclair motor and lead acid battery pack, which I removed from an earlier bike, just after I bought it. I used it with various home build mods over the years. Where do I stand wrt "grandfather rights"?

If you fitted the motor etc to a bike before 1st January 2016, it definitely benefits from grandfather rights and can keep its throttle

Thereafter it's for the lawyers to argue over, since there isn't really any provision for kit bikes in pedelec or any other law. A court might well rule that being bound by usage law as it is, means it is also bound by construction law, this in turn meaning fitting to any bike after that date means it cannot have a throttle.
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[PeterPi]

If you fitted the motor etc to a bike before 1st January 2016, it definitely benefits from grandfather rights and can keep its throttle

Thereafter it's for the lawyers to argue over, since there isn't really any provision for kit bikes in pedelec or any other law. A court might well rule that being bound by usage law as it is, means it is also bound by construction law, this in turn meaning fitting to any bike after that date means it cannot have a throttle.
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Bit of a grey area by the look of it. The present kit was fitted a week ago, so I think I'll err on the side of safety and not have one.

 

[PeterPi]

I heard an item on talkRadio last week saying they were expecting e Scooters to be legalised. If that is the case I would assume it would enhance this matter. Although, at the moment, everything is on hold.

 

[Sarge1892]

honestly why only the disabled?

just on the surface there's people who don'tqualify as disabled but would benefit from throttle only such as those with bad knees or joint pain which does not reach the levels of qualifying as disabled

but even beyond that throttle ebikes are a safety feature in of themselves

most bikes will have either power lag between when the user starts to pedal and the bike delivering traction force from the motor, will require a significant amount of effort from the user if in a high gear or fast pedaling if in a low gear or even both of those

when at traffic lights this causes a slow departureoff the lights which can pose a risk to the rider for example a car along side youpulling off then cutting across your path for a left turn

but with throttle it gives the user imidiate power to get across the junction safely and quickly often before any other cars have had a chance to engage there clutches and start rolling

that alone is a huge safety feature

another example is when a bike lane ends and your must rejoin a fast road you can't and you must not dawdle you need fast and immediate power to be at your max traveling speed when merging

then there's how most pedal assists work the law seems to think a pedal assist is a linear assist up through the power band where the more you work the more the bike works so if you wanna go fast you have to work hard

but the reality of the situation is unless you have a torque sensor (never had one so unsure but I belive they would do as described above) then your bike doesn't do that it detects a movement from the crank and shoves 100% of the modes power into the wheels you could be clown pedaling in first gear and your bike is delivering the full 15.5mph heck you could even take the chain off

so what exactly is the point of requiring pedal assist? your just getting a all or nothing throttle with a goofy trigger mekanism

so combined with the bad knees and joints crowd just allow throttle fully on all bikes its not going to make the change government thinks it makes to the situation and just restricts people from participating whilst increasing risk and danger to others

to sumerise throttle for all
it helps those who are disabled

it allows those who are not disabled but suffer with conditions which affect there participation such as knee and joint pain sufferes

it improves safety by allowing riders to get fast and immediate power to avoid potential hazards

its impact if allowed can only serve positives when used within the current framework of ebike restrictions

 

[Bonzo Banana]

It was just moronic legislation from the EU. It makes zero sense and most ebikes in the world have throttles across Asia, Africa etc. It's simple and reliable. Still legal to own and use a ebike sold in the UK before 2017 with a twist and go throttle. Luckily with ebike legislation being so messy in the UK the police pretty much leave ebikes alone unless they are clearly operating above the assistance speed limit and look very powerful and heavy. Sometimes legislation can be so abysmal that it's practically ignored by just about everyone and ebike legislation is like that. It makes zero sense and seems very poorly thought out and its complicated to follow and prosecute offenders, its also incomplete it doesn't factor in kits as far as I understand but they are allowed. You get so called legal ebikes with mid-drive motors with 700w or more motors well above the 250W rating and they are openly sold. It's just a farce really.

 

[snafu]

Not playing devil's advocate or anything just genuinely confused...

I thought throttles were already available on E-Bikes and Woosh and Wisper for example already offered these?

As I understood it an extra "Type Approval" is required L1e?? It has to be done on a bike by bike basis and I think there are a few conditions attached. Obviously it has to be legal in all other respects but additionally I think there are other requirements as well.

As fr as I know anyone can apply for the certificate if there are confident there E-Bike is legal.

But I'm prepared to be told I'm wrong....

I would be more interested in raising/removing the power limit. (But keeping the speed limit). I think raising the power makes more sense considering cargo E-Bikes for example.

TTFN
John.

 

[Nealh]

Only Wisper offer the type approval route , Woosh simply supply a throttle for the end user to decide if to connect it or not. A completely different scenario.
The petition is dead in the water as DFT already ahd the process buttoned up via type approval in the 250w lpm sub class of the L1e main class.

 

[snafu]

Only Wisper offer the type approval route , Woosh simply supply a throttle for the end user to decide if to connect it or not. A completely different scenario.
The petition is dead in the water as DFT already ahd the process buttoned up via type approval in the 250w lpm sub class of the L1e main class.

Ah ok, sorry, I though Woosh also offered this. But we do agree that E-Bikes with throttles are legal. (Subject to the appropriate L1e certificate).

TTFN
John.

 

[Sarge1892]

Ah ok, sorry, I though Woosh also offered this. But we do agree that E-Bikes with throttles are legal. (Subject to the appropriate L1e certificate).

TTFN
John.

I could verry well be wrong but I remember something about this
I do remember type approval being a thing but the manufacturer must do it and most manufacturers who make the bikes that people want throttle on (pretty much china) don't wanna go through the hassle

and the ones who might like bosch and such are about as full of themselves as road bike users and would much rather get legislation passed to further restrict ebikes and kill of a budding industry that could solve some real world problems

l1e however and the bike by bike basis I thought was the msva route which whilst a option is a minefield to navigate requires you get a tester who is chill and does not hate ebikes so much hell run you through the ringer and when your all said and done your left with what amounts to a moped requiring insurance which for a custom idk if that would be cheap and all the tax and other things lumped ontop as well as a few hundred if not a couple thousand tyed into application fees and license fees

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I could verry well be wrong but I remember something about this
I do remember type approval being a thing but the manufacturer must do it and most manufacturers who make the bikes that people want throttle on (pretty much china) don't wanna go through the hassle

and the ones who might like bosch and such are about as full of themselves as road bike users and would much rather get legislation passed to further restrict ebikes and kill of a budding industry that could solve some real world problems

l1e however and the bike by bike basis I thought was the msva route which whilst a option is a minefield to navigate requires you get a tester who is chill and does not hate ebikes so much hell run you through the ringer and when your all said and done your left with what amounts to a moped requiring insurance which for a custom idk if that would be cheap and all the tax and other things lumped ontop as well as a few hundred if not a couple thousand tyed into application fees and license fees

Hi Sarge, a couple of points.

Yes it’s a hassle but there’s a list of centres that are qualified to test bikes and issue certification on GOV.UK, in our experience they are happy to do the work, it costs £55.00.

An L1e does not require insurance, road tax, MOT etc. The only cost is testing at £55.00. There may be further costs from the manufacturer such as reprogramming the bike and extending the bike’s warranty to cover full throttle.

All the best, David

 

[Eltommos]

Is this statement from dft still valid?

DfT: Pedal cycles converted to ‘twist and go’ exempt from type approval – Pedelecs – Electric Bike Community | Pedelecs - Electric Bike Community

 

[guerney]

Is this statement from dft still valid?

DfT: Pedal cycles converted to ‘twist and go’ exempt from type approval – Pedelecs – Electric Bike Community | Pedelecs - Electric Bike Community

I can't see that anything has changed:

Retained EU law and assimilated law dashboard

This dashboard shows a list of retained EU law (REUL) and assimilated law. These are laws that the UK saved to ensure legislative continuity immediately after Brexit.

www.gov.uk

Regulation (EU) No 168/2013 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 15 January 2013 on the approval and market surveillance of two- or three-wheel vehicles and quadricycles (Text with EEA relevance)

Regulation (EU) No 168/2013 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 15 January 2013 on the approval and market surveillance of two- or three-wheel vehicles and quadricycles (Text with EEA relevance)

www.legislation.gov.uk

 

[Eltommos]

Referring to the earlier posts from Flecc & PeterPi
Type approval for throttles is not needed if the throttle is fitted when converting a bike - then it's perfectly legal. But not legal if the throttle is fitted by the manufacturer from January 2016. Do you agree?

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Only Wisper offer the type approval route , Woosh simply supply a throttle for the end user to decide if to connect it or not. A completely different scenario.
The petition is dead in the water as DFT already ahd the process buttoned up via type approval in the 250w lpm sub class of the L1e main class.

Hi Neal,

We are all scratching our heads a bit.

Why are we (Wisper) going trough all this work (at a loss) when all we need to do is sell a bike without a throttle, then sell a throttle a week later when the bike is second handor indeed supply the throttle and a code to switch it on if the customer requires a full throttle.

Also I’m sure the other company involved would only work within the law, can anyone point out the reg that would confirm this is OK?

Does this rule only apply to non electric donor bikes? Seems silly if that’s the case!

many thanks All the best, David

 

[flecc]

Is this statement from dft still valid?

DfT: Pedal cycles converted to ‘twist and go’ exempt from type approval – Pedelecs – Electric Bike Community | Pedelecs - Electric Bike Community

Yes, but only when an existing used bicycle is converted.

However this is only a lax DfT interpretation, so only applicable in Great Britain. In the mainland EU a strict interpretation of EU law might well disagree.
.

 

[soundwave]

ebike shop sells dongles fit them to the bikes and have warranty and he dont have any problems so just save the money and sell them a throttle to fit them self and less hassle.

 

[Eltommos]

This may help?

Brighton E-bikes blog. Products, articles & photos about electric bikes, lithium-ion battery technology along with some random stuff too. (brightonebikes.co.uk)

 

[flecc]

Does this rule only apply to non electric donor bikes? Seems silly if that’s the case!

Silly is what happens when laws are modified with insufficient due consideration.

The stumbling block here is the difference between Type Approval and Single Vehicle approval.

Under EU pedelec law, also now UK law as ruled by the Great Repeal Bill, bureacracy free pedelecs are only permitted on the roads if power ceases when pedalling stops. That allows them, via an exemption (h) in the type approval legislation, to be not considered as motor vehicles.

If power does not cease when pedalling stops, they are motor vehicles with all that implies, including that they have to be Type Approved AS MOTOR VEHICLES.

But type approval only applies for manufactured complete machines. Any individual machine not type approved or which is assembled in some way can get a Single Vehicle Approval to be used on the roads. However, nowhere in any of the regulations is there an exemption for Single Vehicle Approval pedelecs to remain pedelecs, so a strict interpretation is that they are not allowed on the roads as bicycles, even if all the other provisions for a pedelec including power cutting out when pedalling stops are met. i.e. All kit bikes are illegal.

A less strict interpretation is that, in the spirit of the law, Single Vehicle Approval is the same as having type approval. However, that in turn means the pedelec will still be a motor vehicle in law if power doesn't cut when pedalling stops.

The DfT have taken that less strict interpretation and extended it by saying they will consider single approved pedelecs with full throttles to be not motor vehicles but bicycles. However, therein lies the impasse. The looser interpretation they have assumed also insists that such machines are motor vehicles since it says Single Vehicle is the same as Type Approval, so any pedelec with fully acting throttle remains a motor vehicle with no exemption in law.

So the provision you are using is only a Ministerial order permitting an illegal use, a form of local allowance only. Indeed when applying for a single vehicle approval the Guidance Notes title says as much:

GUIDANCE NOTES FOR COMPLETING AN APPLICATION FOR A MINISTER’S APPROVAL CERTIFICATE (MSVA 1)

It is similar to the Ministerial Order that Paul Boateng made as Home Secretary when he gave permission for cyclists to use the pavement when in genuine fear of the traffic on certain occasions. That is still illegal, merely exempt from prosecution if fulfilling the Minister's conditions.
.

 

[Kev.k]

Interesting thread.

I doubt the police would be interested in a diy build bike. They would never be able to prove when it was built.

Big brand bikes are easier to date, but I still doubt they would put the effort in.

Police are only interested in convictions. The paperwork isn’t worth it to them if there is little chance of a conviction.

They don’t care about what is morally right or wrong, just convictions. They did not even visit my house after I was burgled, or when someone shot out my rear window with a firearm with over 10 witnesses. They told me the guy was in a “pool car” and they couldn’t trace him.

I thoroughly HATE the police in the U.K.