Pagan Electric bike, 60mph fully road legal

[warrah]

One-off Pagan brand ebike. Unlike every other high powered ebike out there, this model has passed government approval and has been road registered as a motorcycle class vehicle, so can legally travel on the roads at its top speed, 60mph. Features:

Adaptto Max-e sine wave controller, programmable profiles/throttle curves, intelligent temperature and range management.
1200wh lipo battery as standard. I can upgrade the battery to 2400wh for an extra £400 (if you opt for the larger battery, there will be a delay of a week or so).
5000w hub motor.
1500w fast charger, fully charged in 1 hour for 1200wh battery, 2 hours for 2400wh battery. Easy access charging port on the side of the bike.
Regenerative braking
DNM USD-8 downhill forks.
Hydraulic disc brakes front and rear. Fat road legal tyres, 3" wide front 3.25" wide rear. Lightweight (for a motorcycle class vehicle), 50kg.
Registered in July 2015, so as new condition, wont need an MOT for 3 years. Can be taxed for £0 (as its electric). Can be ridden with just a CBT. Can be insured with Adrian Flux for same price as a 125cc, they dont consider high powered ebikes exotic.

Delivery will be by a motorcycle shipping company, they normally charge between £60-150 depending on how far away you are. Alternatively I am willing to use the cheapest method you can find. Will personally deliver if local

£3000. Any questions please ask.

 

[Alan Quay]

That is very cool. If I could like twice I would have.

 

[Kuorider]

£3000. Any questions please ask

Convince me not to buy a Honda 250 instead of this .

 

[Alan Quay]

Convince me not to buy a Honda 250 instead of this .

Bike license. Some of us can't be arsed jumping through the BS hoops.

 

[flecc]

Nice build Warrah, neater and more stylish than your last one.
.

 

[warrah]

Convince me not to buy a Honda 250 instead of this .

There isn't much overlap between the two. They have different strengths.

The pagan eliminates fuel costs, road tax, engine noise (you'd be surprised how much that improves your enjoyment of the ride) and also your contribution to humanity b*mf***ing the climate to death, if thats a priority for you. The pagan is a lot more efficient so does not damage itself with massive amounts of heat over time. Needs less maintenance; it doesnt have 100 different mechanical parts that can go wrong, no carburetor, radiator, exhaust, oil system, transmission, pistons, cam chain, starter motor, etc. Don't get me wrong, I think combustion engines are charming; there are few machines still being made today that resemble a museum exhibit.

The honda 250 has a much higher top speed, has a much higher range, petrol stations everywhere so the range is effectively infinite. Whether the pagan or the honda has more torque is an interesting question, its worth researching internal combustion engines vs electric engines regarding torque if youre interested, but we'd need to test the pagan with some kind of torque measuring thing to be sure. The honda can take 2 people, can hill climb better, has a place for luggage, and every garage knows how to repair it. Its worth mentioning though that the pagan has such a simple relationship between its EV parts that if you are up for some light DIY, replacing a part yourself is totally doable. You'd probably have to be up for it, as a garage probably wont touch the EV part. They'll do the lighting part though.

Oh yeh, the chick magnetic field of the honda is probably higher too.

 

[JohnCade]

Bike license. Some of us can't be arsed jumping through the BS hoops.

You’d still need a CBT to ride this if you don’t have a full motorcycle licence as it seems to be classed as equivalent to a 125cc learner bike. So that means taking another CBT if you don’t pass a test after two years. At one time they just let people keep on riding 125cc bikes with a provisional licence for years and years but it may be time limited now. It keeps changing.

Having a full driving licence issued before 2001 doesn’t exempt you for this because it isn’t classed as a moped.

 

[Kuorider]

Nah, Rich you've not convinced me. I'd take the Honda this time. Your last one was better, looked more like a bike and easier to pass of as one. You reckoned in July that production would start by the end of the year,how's progress on that ?. Another point is depreciation, yours has dropped £750 in the last week or so ,I reckon the Honda would do better and still be around in 10 years.
However there is always a niche market for specials like this , I'd still like a go on one, full MB license these last 50 years and the old Cromwell racing lid still in the cupboard. The oily boots are long rotted but my carpet slippers should do. What's all this engine noise stuff ? nothing sounds like a 500 Manx Norton on full chat down the Creg. All those oily bits are pretty reliable you know, only one ever broke on me was a CSR crank up Doune hill in second, not a nice sound. Torque? My Sabena ski boat with the marinised 4.2 Jag engine and Borg Warner Velvet drive had plenty, as had my Mangoletsi tuned 2lt BMW Chevron B4, back in the good old days. The Coombs 3.8 could nip along too, even in top overdrive so lots of lovely torque. no 70 limit then either.
As for a bit of light DIY , does patching up a Jetranger full of bullet holes under fire count? I will however bull up on ICE's as you suggest, Iv'e probably forgotten most of what I learned sometime before your dad had his first w***k.

 

[warrah]

Another point is depreciation, yours has dropped £750 in the last week or so ,I reckon the Honda would do better and still be around in 10 years.
However there is always a niche market for specials like this.

The price drop in the last week obviously isnt depreciation, thats not how depreciation works. Depreciation is reduction in value over the course of time due to wear and tear or relative to a wider changing market. The Pagan is currenty SORN; it didnt experience £750 of wear and tear in the last few weeks, nor did the EV market experience a seismic surge of progress in the last few weeks. The £750 reduction was due to feedback from people on the internet about why it wasn't selling.

More generally though, you are probably right, the Honda will depreciate less. I'm not 100% sure, maybe someone can weigh in on this, but surely an EV will not hold its value as well, compared to a petrol vehicle; the current fast pace of progress in EV technology means todays nissan leaf will seem archaic in 10 years, whereas petrol vehicles have remained relatively unchanged over the years.

 

[flecc]

More generally though, you are probably right, the Honda will depreciate less. I'm not 100% sure, maybe someone can weigh in on this, but surely an EV will not hold its value as well, compared to a petrol vehicle; the current fast pace of progress in EV technology means todays nissan leaf will seem archaic in 10 years, whereas petrol vehicles have remained relatively unchanged over the years.

The largest factor in EV depreciation isn't so much progress as the the high proportional cost of the battery and it having a much shorter life than the vehicle. That's an important reason why e-cars aren't selling. Buy outright a Nissan Leaf for circa £32,000 and at five years old it can't be sold at any price. That's simply because the battery at end of 5yr warranty is circa £16,000 to buy, and no-one's going to pay that to have a five year old small hatchback. The alternative of renting the battery is no solution since they are on four year rental contracts so will cost just as much, or probably more since the rental climbs sharply during the agreement.
.

 

[warrah]

That's simply because the battery at end of 5yr warranty is circa £16,000 to buy, and no-one's going to pay that to have a five year old small hatchback.

whoa £16,000! Thats crazy. Kind of illustrates a general process of diminishing returns that you get with EVs as they get larger and more powerful. The heavier the vehicle, the more power is needed to lug around the weight of more power. Makes sense to go light... wish someone would bring out a small 2 person e-velomobile of some sort.

As a comparison and cuz this is a sales thread, when the Pagans batteries crap out in years to come, it costs £250 to replace, £500 to replace the double sized one. Of course the Nissan leaf has a greater range, but not as much as £16000 would have you think... with the 2400wh battery, the pagan travels 65miles under the similar mostly-30mph-with-occassional-periods-of-faster-speed conditions that the nissan leaf achieves its stated 84mile range.

 

[flecc]

.. wish someone would bring out a small 2 person e-velomobile of some sort.

Renault, who are a combo with Nissan of course, have done that with the Twizy model, a compact tandem two seater car/scooter vehicle. Under £7000 for the basic model, link here.
.

 

[warrah]

Renault, who are a combo with Nissan of course, have done that with the Twizy model, a compact tandem two seater car/scooter vehicle. Under £7000 for the basic model, link here.
.

That is awesome.

 

[flecc]

That is awesome.

Even better is that there is a lower powered Twizy version limited to 45 kph that 14 year olds can drive in France. Our miserable DfT won't entertain it.
.

 

[Amdathlonuk]

The largest factor in EV depreciation isn't so much progress as the the high proportional cost of the battery and it having a much shorter life than the vehicle. That's an important reason why e-cars aren't selling. Buy outright a Nissan Leaf for circa £32,000 and at five years old it can't be sold at any price. That's simply because the battery at end of 5yr warranty is circa £16,000 to buy, and no-one's going to pay that to have a five year old small hatchback. The alternative of renting the battery is no solution since they are on four year rental contracts so will cost just as much, or probably more since the rental climbs sharply during the agreement.
.

My top of the range Renault Zoe cost £10k new.

Keyless entry and starting
Bluetooth
Auto lights
Auto wipers
Satnav
Parking sensors
Dynamic reversing camera
And more.....

First car I have ever bought brand new and the best 10k I've ever spent.
Owned it for 1 year and driven 17k in it. Not been to a petrol station in 12 months and saved £2k this year alone.....

 

[flecc]

My top of the range Renault Zoe cost £10k new.

Keyless entry and starting
Bluetooth
Auto lights
Auto wipers
Satnav
Parking sensors
Dynamic reversing camera
And more.....

First car I have ever bought brand new and the best 10k I've ever spent.
Owned it for 1 year and driven 17k in it. Not been to a petrol station in 12 months and saved £2k this year alone.....

You'll have to try harder, I'm not that easily fooled. The 10k you claim you paid was for the car alone, on top of that you pay a hefty monthly battery rental charge on a multi year contract. The current starting new price for the Zoe is £13,445, absolutely basic spec and not including any battery. The top of the range one you claim you have is listed at £20,545 and the battery rental depending on annual mileage is between £70 and £100 per month in the first year.

Renault and Nissan are partners and effectively one company and your car uses exactly the same system is the Nissan Leaf I wrote about, it's just a Leaf with a different body. Over the contract period it will cost about the same as owning a Nissan Leaf over the same period, and that is hopelessly uneconomic compared with buying an i.c. car like a Renault Clio.
.

 

[oldtom]

My top of the range Renault Zoe cost £10k new.

First car I have ever bought brand new and the best 10k I've ever spent.
Owned it for 1 year and driven 17k in it. Not been to a petrol station in 12 months and saved £2k this year alone.....

What a strange story! First of all, 17,000 miles in a year isn't typical SD&P mileage; it could be but it suggests some business miles?

Secondly, it's a very left-field choice of vehicle for anywhere outside of central London where the likes of the Prius has been very popular for a few years thanks to fleet buyers, (think big discounts), whose car needs are exclusively limited to central London with occasional trips to the outer boroughs.

Moreover, if the case you make is as simple as your limited choice of numbers, we'd all be buying one; Renault wouldn't be able to supply enough of them!

I have just seen Flecc's post and I note he seems less than impressed by your maths so perhaps you'd like to tell us the whole story?

Tom

 

[Amdathlonuk]

You'll have to try harder, I'm not that easily fooled. The 10k you claim you paid was for the car alone, on top of that you pay a hefty monthly battery rental charge on a multi year contract. The current starting new price for the Zoe is £13,445, absolutely basic spec and not including any battery. The top of the range one you claim you have is listed at £20,545 and the battery rental depending on annual mileage is between £70 and £100 per month.

Renault and Nissan are partners and effectively one company and your car uses exactly the same system is the Nissan Leaf I wrote about, it's just a Leaf with a different body. Over the contract period it will cost exactly the same as owning a Nissan Leaf over the same period, and that is hopelessly uneconomic compared with buying an i.c. car like a Renault Clio.
.

Flecc,

That's a really interesting response.
Why would I lie? what benefit would it be for me?

My car was £21k new, Renault gave me £5.5k as an incentive and the government gave me £5k as an incentive to purchase.
So my car cost £10.5k (okay I knocked £500 off the total price, hands up to that one). I bought mine in December last year when there was a fire sale.

The rental is £220 (£145 car / £75 battery) per month. that's it.
It is not more economical to own an I.C.E car, I have the experience of owning both so feel my data is more accurate.

Previously I owned a Renault Laguna 1.5DCi, that car was AMAZING, it would do 800-900 miles per tank (I drive carefully as my commute is 100 miles per day). I thought long and hard about changing as my Laguna was such a nice car to drive.

The Laguna was costing me monthly as follows:

HP - £155
Ins - £28
Servicing - £25
Tax - £10
Fuel - £140

Total - £358

The Zoe is costing me monthly as follows:

HP - £220
Ins - £11 (£130 fully comp)

Total - £231

We have seen NO significant increase in our electricity bill (we have not had to increase our monthly SO), as I utilise the current free charging network and I have negotiated with my employer to fit a charger at their facility as it further enhances their green policies.
Even if they were to charge me for the use of electricity it would cost approximately £5 per week.

 

[flecc]

Flecc,

That's a really interesting response.
Why would I lie? what benefit would it be for me?

I'm not accusing you of a lie since I have no idea what you paid. What I'm saying is that your post was misleading since neither I nor any other member of this forum will necessarily see such costs. For example:

No guarantee that we also get such a high discount, Renault aren't currently offering any.

Most peoples mileage isn't as high as yours so the battery rental costs are more punitive.

Battery rental costs are bound to rise sharply each year since the battery cost to Renault isn't remotely covered at the starting rental rates

Most of us won't have free charging facilities.

You're only speaking of current cost, the true depreciation over time could yet be shock, something the entire motor trade acknowledge and admit they have no answer to.

Finally there's the installation cost of a high current charging station at home, which for many of us will also incur an electricty supplier charge as well to take the supply to the garage.

Two facts. I would dearly have loved to own an e-car and at both my last car purchases I went deeply into the subject. But I'm a lower mileage driver like half of all the drivers on the road and for me each time it was a hopelessly expensive option over the car life, as it will be for most drivers.

Renault enthusiastically went into a four car range of e-cars at the outset, but the miserable sales as potential buyers saw the huge costs have resulted in them reducing now to the two tiddlers, the Twizy and Zoe. Yet even there they are sometimes having to bribe with huge discounts to shift them as you've acknowledged.

As I implied in my original post that you responded to, e-cars are a busted flush. They haven't sold in anything remotely like the numbers needed and have brought insuperable problems for the industry and trade. They aren't anywhere near good enough yet to replace i.c. cars.
.

 

[Amdathlonuk]

I'm not accusing you of a lie since I have no idea what you paid. What I'm saying is that your post was misleading since neither I nor any other member of this forum will necessarily see such costs. For example:

No guarantee that we also get such a high discount, Renault aren't currently offering any.

Most peoples mileage isn't as high as yours so the battery rental costs are more punitive.

Battery rental costs are bound to rise sharply each year since the battery cost to Renault isn't remotely covered at the starting rental rates

Most of us won't have free charging facilities.

You're only speaking of current cost, the true depreciation over time could yet be shock, something the entire motor trade acknowledge and admit they have no answer to.

Two facts. I would dearly have loved to own an e-car and at both my last car purchases I went deeply into the subject. But I'm a lower mileage driver like half of all the drivers on the road and for me each time it was a hopelessly expensive option over the car life, as it will be for most drivers.

Renault enthusiastically went into a four car range of e-cars at the outset, but the miserable sales as potential buyers saw the huge costs have resulted in them reducing now to the two tiddlers, the Twizy and Zoe, yet even there they are sometimes having to bribe with huge discounts to shift them as you've acknowledged.

As I implied in my original post that you responded to, e-cars are a busted flush. They haven't sold in anything remotely like the numbers needed and have brought insuperable problems for the industry and trade.
.

Flecc,

Agreed, they certainly haven't sold as many as they would like.
However I wasn't suggesting that the deals were still available, I was merely stating what I paid for mine and how it has benefited me.

However, the battery rental is tied for 4 years on my car, so I will see no increase.
Renault also guarantee the battery for 75% of it's capacity throughout the lease period, therefore if it was to fail they will fix it or replace it at their cost (I was informed £9k when I took delivery).

The mileage you annually commute is an important factor when looking into electric cars.
I am one of the lucky/unlucky ones who has a significant commute so it pays for me to own one.
I think what people tend to forget to take into account sometimes is the TRUE cost of owning a car including servicing, fuel, tyres, and insurance....etc.
Once you add these up the monthly payment is more than you think.

Clearly at the end of my lease I have 2 options: keep the car and have free motoring until it dies, or hand it back and get a new one.

Regards,

JJ