Pagan Electric bike, 60mph fully road legal

[JohnCade]

Flecc,

Agreed, they certainly haven't sold as many as they would like.
However I wasn't suggesting that the deals were still available, I was merely stating what I paid for mine and how it has benefited me.

However, the battery rental is tied for 4 years on my car, so I will see no increase.
Renault also guarantee the battery for 75% of it's capacity throughout the lease period, therefore if it was to fail they will fix it or replace it at their cost (I was informed £9k when I took delivery).

The mileage you annually commute is an important factor when looking into electric cars.
I am one of the lucky/unlucky ones who has a significant commute so it pays for me to own one.
I think what people tend to forget to take into account sometimes is the TRUE cost of owning a car including servicing, fuel, tyres, and insurance....etc.
Once you add these up the monthly payment is more than you think.

Clearly at the end of my lease I have 2 options: keep the car and have free motoring until it dies, or hand it back and get a new one.

Regards,

JJ

The biggest true cost of ownership is the one most often ignored by many. Depreciation.

 

[flecc]

I think what people tend to forget to take into account sometimes is the TRUE cost of owning a car including servicing, fuel, tyres, and insurance....etc.
Once you add these up the monthly payment is more than you think.

But for the many of us who have lower annual mileages, the true cost is very low. I'm ex-motor trade by the way, so know the position well.

First, cars don't need annual servicing, that's a device the industry uses to give the motor trade an ongoing income. Any industry insider will confide that any modern car will run for at least 50,000 miles without attention, more miles than most will do during a car's ownership. In the USA they are more honest about this, years ago GM launched two models with first service at 100,000 miles! Ergo I've never paid for a car service, even on the one I kept for over ten years.

I've never bought a replacement car tyre, they outlast the life of my cars, typically kept for 4 to 5 years.

Fuel cost is not a big deal for the lower mileage driver like me.

Insurance you mention applies to e-cars too.

Unlike an e-car, my low mileage 4 to 5 year old cars fetch a good resale/PX price.

There's another difficulty for my owning an e-car, it's incapability of doing the 140 miles each way on the three or four annual occasions visiting relatives. For those it would mean a complex of expensive time consuming public transport or the inconvenience and expense of two or three days car hire each time.
.

 

[Croxden]

I still fancy a Tesla.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Electric car project:



Powerful 250 W nominative mid drive motor to enable 25 kph uphill
Lots (4 at least) of these https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/672-high-c-rate-36v-20ah-li-ion-battery-heat-shrink-battery-pack-battery.html

Cost:
Go-one: 12,000€
Motor and batteries (4x20Ah): 1600€

Logic:
Pedelec = no insurance other than extended guarantee on house insurance "in any place" for the full value. No parking fees (it is a bike). No road tax... Cost of ownership is replacing batteries when used, say 400€ a year on average or less than 35€/month. Required range per day/charge 250 km.
An out of the weather vehicle for touring and inter-city travel Light baggage inside or larger volume in (aerodynamic) trailer.

Unknowns:
Can the bottom bracket drive maintain 25 kph on hills at full assistance? There is 20 kg of extra weight in the batteries but the "rider" or driver is under 80 kg with light luggage so all up 100 kg of load. A 20 Amp controller is capable of providing 1 full HP (740 W).
Other than battery life how long will the plexi-glass screens hold out before needing replacing?

 

[SteveRuss]

I still fancy a Tesla.

Yep. The P90D is an amazing accomplishment ..!!

 

[flik9999]

I know this is a bit if a necro but at only 5kw you have 60 mph which is what most 125s top out at. The max you are allowed on a cbt is 11kw, would it theoretically be possible to get one that can do 80 at 11kw.

If so that could be a good bike for riding up fast dual carriageways (a38 et al). Before you get your full license. Could also handle motorways at those speeds.

 

[Fat Rat]

Holy thread rivival

 

[Gh0stxSinghx]

One-off Pagan brand ebike. Unlike every other high powered ebike out there, this model has passed government approval and has been road registered as a motorcycle class vehicle, so can legally travel on the roads at its top speed, 60mph. Features:

Adaptto Max-e sine wave controller, programmable profiles/throttle curves, intelligent temperature and range management.
1200wh lipo battery as standard. I can upgrade the battery to 2400wh for an extra £400 (if you opt for the larger battery, there will be a delay of a week or so).
5000w hub motor.
1500w fast charger, fully charged in 1 hour for 1200wh battery, 2 hours for 2400wh battery. Easy access charging port on the side of the bike.
Regenerative braking
DNM USD-8 downhill forks.
Hydraulic disc brakes front and rear. Fat road legal tyres, 3" wide front 3.25" wide rear. Lightweight (for a motorcycle class vehicle), 50kg.
Registered in July 2015, so as new condition, wont need an MOT for 3 years. Can be taxed for £0 (as its electric). Can be ridden with just a CBT. Can be insured with Adrian Flux for same price as a 125cc, they dont consider high powered ebikes exotic.

Delivery will be by a motorcycle shipping company, they normally charge between £60-150 depending on how far away you are. Alternatively I am willing to use the cheapest method you can find. Will personally deliver if local

£3000. Any questions please ask.

Nice, Can ride legal on road with My Provisional License and L-Plate?

 

[Fat Rat]

But for the many of us who have lower annual mileages, the true cost is very low. I'm ex-motor trade by the way, so know the position well.

First, cars don't need annual servicing, that's a device the industry uses to give the motor trade an ongoing income. Any industry insider will confide that any modern car will run for at least 50,000 miles without attention, more miles than most will do during a car's ownership. In the USA they are more honest about this, years ago GM launched two models with first service at 100,000 miles! Ergo I've never paid for a car service, even on the one I kept for over ten years.

I've never bought a replacement car tyre, they outlast the life of my cars, typically kept for 4 to 5 years.

Fuel cost is not a big deal for the lower mileage driver like me.

Insurance you mention applies to e-cars too.

Unlike an e-car, my low mileage 4 to 5 year old cars fetch a good resale/PX price.

There's another difficulty for my owning an e-car, it's incapability of doing the 140 miles each way on the three or four annual occasions visiting relatives. For those it would mean a complex of expensive time consuming public transport or the inconvenience and expense of two or three days car hire each time.
.

As the thread had been revived I was wondering if you still agreed with your above quote

 

[flecc]

As the thread had been revived I was wondering if you still agreed with your above quote

Not entirely for the latest cars of course, four years is almost half the entire market existence the 8/9 years of the common one's like the Leaf so there's been big advances in some cases. But what I posted about the 2015 cars like the Zoe still largely stands. They're only worth a fraction of what was paid for them and it's a struggle to sell them since few can live with a 70 miles new battery range, much less in Winter.

Co-incidentally, my local residents magazine, the Selsdon Gazette recently had a critical article about a four year old Zoe a man had bought from his son who'd changed to an ic car. He was chiefly complaining about it's very limited range and the well known deficiencies of the charging network. A run to Reading and back that he sometimes needed to do requiring three charging stops for two and a bit charges, adding one and a half hours to the round trip. I can do the same round trip on one charge with ample to spare, and so could the current Zoe, showing the scale of change.

No different from e-bikes of course, year 2000 ones from half way through the e-bike market span are rubbish compared to today's offerings. Back then they mostly had SLA batteries, weighed as much as 40 kilos and 15 miles maximum range was common.
.

 

[tommie]

"First, cars don't need annual servicing, that's a device the industry uses to give the motor trade an ongoing income. Any industry insider will confide that any modern car will run for at least 50,000 miles without attention, "

Are you sure??!
...wouldn`t like to have my diesel go that long without oil and filter changes at least.

 

[flecc]

"First, cars don't need annual servicing, that's a device the industry uses to give the motor trade an ongoing income. Any industry insider will confide that any modern car will run for at least 50,000 miles without attention, "

Are you sure??!
...wouldn`t like to have my diesel go that long without oil and filter changes at least.

As an ex motor mechanic I'm absolutely sure Tommie and you're also contradicting the Ford technical man who last commented on that ability to me. As I've posted, I've run cars for over ten years with no servicing and in the USA some GM cars are ok for 100,000 miles to first service. And in 28 years of driving retirement there's been no services at all on my cars.

Those are all petrol, but the 11 year old Mitsubishi L200 diesel I picked up cheaply to do work for my local nature reserve had it's last service seven years earlier and a patchy record before. I used it for two years and sold it last year still running fine.

There was a time I well remember when regular servicing was important, but that was a very long time ago. Metallurgical and lubrication advances have completely transformed this subject. Hence the big changes in service intervals, but which still don't reflect true capability.
.

 

[Fat Rat]

"First, cars don't need annual servicing, that's a device the industry uses to give the motor trade an ongoing income. Any industry insider will confide that any modern car will run for at least 50,000 miles without attention, "

Are you sure??!
...wouldn`t like to have my diesel go that long without oil and filter changes at least.

I've got to agree from what I've seen in the last 30yrs in the trade
Cars with 20k service intervals suffer with engine wear a lot more than cars that have least had an oil and filter change every 12k or so
It doesn't matter how good the oil is it get contaminated over time that stands to reason
Of course the usage the vehicles get in relation to all motorway work for instance and running round town every day also has a bearing on engine wear and oil contamination for that matter,
Also with servicing and especially with diesel vehicles you have the added insult of the introduction of bio diesel at the pumps leaving black sludge in the tanks and blocking fuel filters obviously in Flecc 's days in the trade this wasn't an issue but it is these days as at present theres 5% bio in all diesel and there talking about increasing that to 10%
The future is not getting better .

 

[flecc]

I've got to agree from what I've seen in the last 30yrs in the trade
Cars with 20k service intervals suffer with engine wear a lot more than cars that have least had an oil and filter change every 12k or so

Of course they do, but the first owner should only pay for their own ownership, not pay to keep the car new for subsequent owners. For the great majority the slight wear doesn't matter, firstly because they don't keep cars long enough to get anywhere near being affected, secondly because two thirds of drivers do less than 7000 miles a year, often much less as insurance stats show.

So electing for annual servicing both inconveniences them and costs them some £200 to £400 a year for the service, depending on car model and location. It's not needed for safety, since from the third year the MOT takes care of that inspection.

Annual servicing regardless of mileage has long been a rip off, completely unjustified for most owners who don't do high mileages. And you have to account for GM introducing two models some 20 years ago with first service at 100,000 miles. They are hardly an inexperienced car company and know, like I do, the cars were easily capable of that. For our smaller models that easily translates to the 50,000 miles that Ford man mentioned and I agree with.
.

 

[Fat Rat]

Of course they do, but the first owner should only pay for their own ownership, not pay to keep the car new for subsequent owners. For the great majority the slight wear doesn't matter, firstly because they don't keep cars long enough to get anywhere near being affected, secondly because two thirds of drivers do less than 7000 miles a year, often much less as insurance stats show.

So electing for annual servicing both inconveniences them and costs them some £200 to £400 a year for the service, depending on car model and location. It's not needed for safety, since from the third year the MOT takes care of that inspection.

Annual servicing regardless of mileage has long been a rip off, completely unjustified for most owners who don't do high mileages. And you have to account for GM introducing two models some 20 years ago with first service at 100,000 miles. They are hardly an inexperienced car company and know, like I do, the cars were easily capable of that. For our smaller models that easily translates to the 50,000 miles that Ford man mentioned and I agree with.
.

We will have to agree to disagree on this ,
Because Oil contamination plays a massive part in oil degrading with things such as condensation ,fuel carbon and metal particles just to name a few this all needs removing from engine's with oil changes
As for a service just being to keep a car nice for someone else that's rubbish
A service is more than just an oil change , its about checking brakes ,suspension , changing brake fluid which is hydroscopic and gets contaminated with water in as little as 24months there is also lots of other components which get checked on a service
Don't tell me as well that an MOT takes care of that because an MOT is good for the day and represents a very low quality check compared to a service which is a high quality check for the next year
VOSA themselves tell you an MOT should not be classed as a guarantee the car is in good condition
They also say that basically the MOT test is on a scale of 0-100% is down in the very low percentages in quality compared to a service which should be to return a car back as close to 100% as possible
An example of this is pad wear being an advice and pass @ 1.5mm which the pads are basically knackered at where as a service they would be renewed
Like I said we are going to have to agree to disagree on this subject by a long way

One more thing thou , Truthfully would you advice a potential buyer of a car to purchase the serviced vehicle or the vehicle that had never been serviced ?
Now tell me servicing as no residual value for resale .

 

[flecc]

We will have to agree to disagree on this ,
Because Oil contamination plays a massive part in oil degrading with things such as condensation ,fuel carbon and metal particles just to name a few this all needs removing from engine's with oil changes
As for a service just being to keep a car nice for someone else that's rubbish
A service is more than just an oil change , its about checking brakes ,suspension , changing brake fluid which is hydroscopic and gets contaminated with water in as little as 24months there is also lots of other components which get checked on a service
Don't tell me as well that an MOT takes care of that because an MOT is good for the day and represents a very low quality check compared to a service which is a high quality check for the next year
VOSA themselves tell you an MOT should not be classed as a guarantee the car is in good condition
They also say that basically the MOT test is on a scale of 0-100% is down in the very low percentages in quality compared to a service which should be to return a car back as close to 100% as possible
An example of this is pad wear being an advice and pass @ 1.5mm which the pads are basically knackered at where as a service they would be renewed
Like I said we are going to have to agree to disagree on this subject by a long way

One more thing thou , Truthfully would you advice a potential buyer of a car to purchase the serviced vehicle or the vehicle that had never been serviced ?
Now tell me servicing as no residual value for resale .

Yes we'll have to disagree since I think you are grossly overstating the case for annual servicing and not answering what I've posted.

A s I've posted it's all too often a rip off. Take this case first. As you know makers share engines and the later Suzuki SX4 and Sprint Sport shared the same 1600 cc petrol engine with the Nissan Qashqai and some Renaults.

Suzuki's service interval for it, 9000 miles.

Nissan/Renault's 18,000 miles. Double!

Another example, Nissans service interval for most models is 18,000 miles, for petrol, diesel and even the electric Leaf. That isn't any way remotely related to need.

There are many similar examples in the industry.

As I said, it's about what the main dealers need to survive since car sales are not enough, nothing to do with wear, oil, filters or necessity.

Still, it's up to others if they want to pay out unnecessarily. I know how much cheaper my lifetime's driving has been, even after taking into account resale values.
.

 

[EddiePJ]

Cars with 20k service intervals suffer with engine wear a lot more than cars that have least had an oil and filter change every 12k or so
.

Perhaps I am being cynical, but I have always interpreted the 20k servicing pitch as a marketing ploy to attract fleet buyers. Low service costs, combined with regular part exchanging at the end of or before warranty expiry, must be quite attractive.

 

[Fat Rat]

Perhaps I am being cynical, but I have always interpreted the 20k servicing pitch as a marketing ploy to attract fleet buyers. Low service costs, combined with regular part exchanging at the end of or before warranty expiry, must be quite attractive.

That's exactly what it's for another sales stunt
Pure and simple

 

[Rich_uk]

My 2008 Passat has a service every 2 years (approx 20k miles), is now on just over 190k miles, and still drives like a new car.

 

[flecc]

That's exactly what it's for another sales stunt
Pure and simple

On this we are in agreement, for a long time now the service intervals have been more about marketing than anything else.

But on technical necessity I still disagree.
.