Ongoing reliability of Kalkhoff/Focus Impulse 2 motors

[nemesis]

I own a Kalkhoff Endeavour Impulse S10

that is just over 2 years old. It has developed a fault and no longer operates as an E-bike

I have called and emailed 50 cycles UK to get the fault rectified but as yet no one has had the courtesy to return my calls or emails.

In desperation I contacted Derby Cycles Germany, who told me to get in touch with the distributor and if they weren't available to look on there website for another dealer.

Well Mr Derby Cycles I don't know where you hide the list of distributors on your website but I cant find them.

I was also under the impression 50 cycles UK was your only distributor of this bike.

So now I have a very expensive E-bike that none, not the dealer or manufacturer are interested in fixing the fault.


Both Derby Cycles and 50 Cycles UK have the worst after sales support I have ever had the displeasure of coming across.

If your in the UK don't bother with 50 Cycles when a fault develops with your bike and it will, there will be no support, your on your own..

you have been warned

We all know what it is like dealing with them because it has been posted on this forum quite a few times,sometimes perseverance works with them but i wouldn`t hold your breath.They know all about the problems and failures of the impulse motor and have been known to replace motors out of warranty.

 

[JonJaz]

Hi Iam new to the forum and have limited experience with ebikes other than fitting an Alien Ocean front wheel kit to a Thorn Raven a few years ago. I have read the comments on the Impulse 2 motor and it seems that Derby have/had? a problem. I read the info on the Impulse 2.2 and decided to take the plunge and bought a 50 cycles Toba Crossbar fitted with the Impulse 2.2. I checked the part number with Derby and I am satisfied that I do indeed have a 2.2 phew!
I am an older rider who has gone to seed so the poor bike has to help quite a bit I am also heavy 110Kg+ so getting up our local hills in West Yorkshire is hard work and would be impossible with my legs. So far no problems the bike is performing well getting me up and down some 10%+ hills without complaint the Shimano 7 speed hub gear seems as easy to use as the Rohloff fitted to my Thorn Raven and as yet it has not failed to change gear even under load it helps that the motor cuts its power delivery momentarily as you change.
I have only done 100 miles so far but I am very happy with the bike. I will continue to listen for any strange noises that might indicate a failing motor or gears and will report back.
Good bits Great price for a quality bike, range and comfort
Bad bits Heavy cheap pedals and saddle

 

[paul bromley]

Update on my last post

Joe from 50 Cycles has been in touch about the ongoing technical problem with my bike

I shipped the motor, battery and display to them for diagnostics and a problem was found with the motor

50 cycles have changed out the motor and given me an extra 2 years warranty on the replacement motor

My bike is now back on the road and working well


Thank you Joe

 

[redalexx]

Derby is planning motor improvements for the EVO and EVO RS:

Impulse EVO & EVO RS - constructional changes in 2018

 

[Alexandre M]

Hello,

I bought my Impulse 2.0 on a Focus Aventura Speed in May 2016. I had to have the motor replaced after 9 months / 3000 km due to awful cracking noise followed by complete gearbox failure (motor running without any gears catching).

The bike now still makes the "duck" noise, especially on cold days, up hill.

I recently experienced a complete e-system shut off (everything off, power button does nothing, battery charge indicator still working when pressed) after riding in heavy rain. The bike would'nt start for two days. It seems to be working now, though there is condensation inside the screen. The shop won't take it in, clamming that that can't apply warranty if they cannot see a fault.

Any one here with any issues with rain (I must admit I only read the first few pages of this post)?

Best,
Alex.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Update on my last post

Joe from 50 Cycles has been in touch about the ongoing technical problem with my bike

I shipped the motor, battery and display to them for diagnostics and a problem was found with the motor

50 cycles have changed out the motor and given me an extra 2 years warranty on the replacement motor

My bike is now back on the road and working well


Thank you Joe

How much did you have to pay for the repair, including postage?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Hello,

I bought my Impulse 2.0 on a Focus Aventura Speed in May 2016. I had to have the motor replaced after 9 months / 3000 km due to awful cracking noise followed by complete gearbox failure (motor running without any gears catching).

The bike now still makes the "duck" noise, especially on cold days, up hill.

I recently experienced a complete e-system shut off (everything off, power button does nothing, battery charge indicator still working when pressed) after riding in heavy rain. The bike would'nt start for two days. It seems to be working now, though there is condensation inside the screen. The shop won't take it in, clamming that that can't apply warranty if they cannot see a fault.

Any one here with any issues with rain (I must admit I only read the first few pages of this post)?

Best,
Alex.

Take it out in the rain again. When it stops working because it's full of water, send it to them.

 

[nemesis]

If anyone is worrying if they have a broken motor it will sound like this.

 

[reggie_electric]

And/or

 

[redalexx]

Trying to find the right frequency

 

[oriteroom]

Two and a half years on since this thread started, AND SADLY faulty motors continue to come out of the woodwork, EVEN WITH RECENT PURCHASES!!!!! Poor 'English Tom', a new forum member, has reported on an old thread of mine, problems with a 3 month old Kalkhoff Premium Include, alledgedly with a Series 3.0 motor. Such a catalogue of disasterous failures NEVER happened with the Panasonic motors which Kalkhoff fitted to the best bikes they ever made, before they stared dabbling (or is it daubling!) with Daub motors. Our three panasonic powered bikes now have a combined mileage of over 38,000 miles in the years from 2008. Still running on original batteries as well. Daubled ourselves in 2015 with an Impulse powered Tasman for Mrs 'O' , but moved that one on, once the threat of poor reliability came to light. Fortunately, very recently found an almost unmarked, loved, v. Low mileage 2008 ProConnect exactly the same as Mrs 'O' as a back-up for her, or for when I can no longer swing my leg over the crossbar. Thank Goodness for ebay!!!

English Tim's post....... on thread
Anyone Fancying a PUNT on the new Impulse Evo bike in 2016


I have a 3 month old Kalkhoff Premium Include, which I believe has a 3.0 motor. I have loved it until it developed a fault, where the drive fails and I get error message, 'wait for drive'. The bike also occasionally makes banging noises when putting effort into pedalling.

My dealer tells me Kalkhoff say it needs a software update, which will hopefully happen next week. I'll keep you posted.

#25English Tim, Today at 11:36 AM

 

[English Tim]

Thanks everyone for your input. I am keen to understand my Kalkhoff, as when I bought it I had to set it up myself and don't understand many of the settings.

I have contacted 50 Cycles for their advice, which I am willing to pay for, as they seem very knowledgable and competent.

I love my bike and use it a lot. I have just changed the seatpost to a Suntour and my coccyx will be forever grateful.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It should be noted that one of the reasons the old Panasonic is so reliable is because it doesn't make much power. It maxes out at about 300w at the back wheel compared with a Bosch or Impulse, which is around 600w - double the power!

 

[flecc]

It should be noted that one of the reasons the old Panasonic is so reliable is because it doesn't make much power. It maxes out at about 300w at the back wheel compared with a Bosch or Impulse, which is around 600w - double the power!

And another reason is the Panasonic's simpler drive train needing much less reduction due to a small chain sprocket running at much higher speed. Not only more reliable but more efficient too, needing less power.

Of course Bosch have recognised that superiority and copied it in their later units, putting some reduction into the rider drive train instead. Still not as sensible as the Panasonic though which doesn't lose rider efficiency either.
.

 

[Ocsid]

It should be noted that one of the reasons the old Panasonic is so reliable is because it doesn't make much power. It maxes out at about 300w at the back wheel compared with a Bosch or Impulse, which is around 600w - double the power!

In trying to understand this I am presuming the 600Ws quoted is either a peak momentary power , one for use outside the EU or a deregulated one in that the EU limit the continuous power of assisted bikes on public roads to 250 Watts?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

In trying to understand this I am presuming the 600Ws quoted is either a peak momentary power , one for use outside the EU or a deregulated one in that the EU limit the continuous power of assisted bikes on public roads to 250 Watts?

EN15194, the standard for EU pedelecs, does not limit the power in any way. The only requirement is that the motor needs to be "rated" at no more than 250W. Manufacturer can rate their motors at whatever they want as long as they don't over-rate them because the tests in EN15194 only test for over-rating.

The way motors behave at different speeds and under different conditions is quite complicated, so it's very difficult to pin them down to a power associated with their rating. In the US, the limit is 750w maximum output power, which is much easier to test and control. You need about 500w of maximum output power to make an ebike suitable for the masses.

You can see that the power of Bosch systems and its competitors are gradually increasing year by year. The main limit has always been the battery power. It'll be interesting to see how far up the power goes before someone calls foul.

 

[Ocsid]

EN15194, the standard for EU pedelecs, does not limit the power in any way. The only requirement is that the motor needs to be "rated" at no more than 250W. Manufacturer can rate their motors at whatever they want as long as they don't over-rate them because the tests in EN15194 only test for over-rating.

The way motors behave at different speeds and under different conditions is quite complicated, so it's very difficult to pin them down to a power associated with their rating. In the US, the limit is 750w maximum output power, which is much easier to test and control. You need about 500w of maximum output power to make an ebike suitable for the masses.

You can see that the power of Bosch systems and its competitors are gradually increasing year by year. The main limit has always been the battery power. It'll be interesting to see how far up the power goes before someone calls foul.

Thanks "d8veh" for replying, however, despite a career designing power drives it has not helped me better understand the point raised.

I can't justify for my academic interest to buy EN15194 to try to unravel the contradictions in my mind between the published 250 kW limitation here in the EU and having installed motors allowed to develop greatly more than that.

I can readily see issues with extreme torque loadings, but not power, the more so with the higher power levels the same units could be supplied at for other markets.

Thanks for trying anyway.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Once you clear your mind, it's easy. There never has been a 250w limitation. That's a complete myth. The limitation has always been on the "rated" power, which is basically what the motor's design/marketing team stamp on the motor according to their judgement. It has nothing to do with actual power.

 

[flecc]

Thanks "d8veh" for replying, however, despite a career designing power drives it has not helped me better understand the point raised.

I can't justify for my academic interest to buy EN15194 to try to unravel the contradictions in my mind between the published 250 kW limitation here in the EU and having installed motors allowed to develop greatly more than that.

I can readily see issues with extreme torque loadings, but not power, the more so with the higher power levels the same units could be supplied at for other markets.

Thanks for trying anyway.

Maybe a little of the history will help. Despite their first appearances being in Germany and The Netherlands in the 1920s, England was a pioneer in trying to get e-bikes actually onto the market in the early 1980s, and in 1983 we had regulations created for them.

At the core was a strict 200 watts assist limit and 12 mph maximum assist speed, later changed to 15 mph. But the actual 200 watts was useless and they failed to take off in the market. Then in the late 1990s Japanese makers like Yamaha entered the UK market with their nominal 250 watt motors.

They accorded with both Japanese and EU law, but not UK law of course. The Japanese law on maximum was obviously pragmatic since it was obvious that the Yamaha at least was way over 250 watts, some remarking it was moped like in the way it delivered power, hill climbing without pedalling being possible most of time.

Here in the UK no-one took any notice, the police didn't have a clue about the regulations, there were too few e-bikes to bother with, the retailers didn't appear to have troubled consciences and the Department for Transport had more important things to worry about.

So for 13 years e-bikes were being sold in ever increasing numbers, illegal in respect of their nominal 250 watts and illegal in respect of their actual power, that typically being around 500 watts. And that of course was really what was needed, an actual 200 or 250m watts being very inadequate.

The mainland EU had a somewhat similar situation since their e-bike sales had been growing apace.

Once it was recognised the situation was clearly out of hand, to correct it meant destroying a long established large market and scrapping many hundreds of thousands of e-bikes, or doing what the Japanese had done, take a liberal view of the maximum power allowed*.

The Japanese had compensated by having strict law on the phase down of power, the maximum available only allowed up to 15 kph (9.4 mph), then declining at a constant rate to zero at 25 kph (15.5 mph) commensurate with a strict formula**.

The EU chose to do what the Japanese had done with a liberal view on the maximum power, but only specified some power phase down towards 25 kph but without specification on how that was to be applied. So everyone ignored that part.

Twelve years later in April 2015 the UK adopted what the EU had done, so that is where we are at, a very loose and practical interpretation of maximum power.

So long as manufacturers don't push their luck too far and keep below about 700 watts actual, I don't anticipate any problems.

* Japanese law states the maximum power allowed must not exceed what the rider can put in. Given that the best riders can output up to 1000 watts and 450 watts for an hour or so, it's a very loose law in this respect.

** Japanese law prescribes the power phase down slope using this equation:

1 - ( [kph - 15] / 9 ) = assist factor

where kph is the road speed.

Quite simply what this means is the road speed in kph, minus 15, then divided by 9 produces a result which is subtracted from 1.

In a practical example, at 20 kph (12.5 mph), taking 15 from that 20 kph gives us 5. Then that 5 divided by 9 gives 0.55 recurring. To complete the equation we take that 0.55 from 1 to give 0.45 or 45%, and that's the ratio of rider power that the motor is allowed to assist with at 12.5 mph.

At the lower speed of 11 mph (17.6 kph) using the same calculation, 17.6 minus 15 then divided by 9 and taken away from 1 gives 0.71 or 71% of the riders input given as motor assistance.

At the higher speed of 13 mph (20.8 kph), only 36% of rider input is given by the motor.

It's this strict phase down detail that's missing from our Western law.
.

 

[Danidl]

Thanks "d8veh" for replying, however, despite a career designing power drives it has not helped me better understand the point raised.

I can't justify for my academic interest to buy EN15194 to try to unravel the contradictions in my mind between the published 250 kW limitation here in the EU and having installed motors allowed to develop greatly more than that.

I can readily see issues with extreme torque loadings, but not power, the more so with the higher power levels the same units could be supplied at for other markets.

Thanks for trying anyway.

When you buy a bike with en15194 sticker on it you are fully legal. The manufacturer or EU agent has certified that it is compliant. If you modify the ebike by perhaps altering its controller , supply voltage or dongling it, you are no longer necessarily legal. If it were subsequently shown that it's power output was incorrect, then the manufacturer would carry the can. Unless you had modified it.
The motor in the bike has a specifation on power output and there are other EN EU ISO regulations on how these need to be measured. Basically the motor is required to provide the rated power for a specific period of time , not fail and have a specified temperature rise. In the case of our en standard this is 250w.
Such a motor can provide greater than 250w perhaps up to 750w , for short periods, and still remain legal.This type of 3:1 excursion is legal, provided it's time limited.
Measuring the mechanical power output from a motor needs a dynamometer, whereas measuring power into a motor is much simpler. Being just the Product of voltage by current. . However power in does not equal mechanical power out and particularly at high power levels the motor is inefficient. ... Not of course as inefficient as it is if it stalls, when all the power in is converted into heat.