nvm moscow throttle

[WheezyRider]

Found it here:

How I bypassed the speed restriction on my NCM 500W/48V Moscow Plus 29er.

The first thing that came to my mind after my first ride on my 48V/500W NCM Moscow Plus was "How can I make this bike faster?" Throttle was maxed at 20mph(32km/hr) and the Petal Assist top speed was limited to 23mph.(37km/h) I knew the motor was capable of much more to stay within the specs of...

electricbikereview.com

Follow the links in the threads for info.

 

[jokskot]

This one:

Electric Bicycle E-bike Waterproof Cable Connector For E-brake Display Throttle | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Electric Bicycle E-bike Waterproof Cable Connector For E-brake Display Throttle at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.

www.ebay.co.uk

It's a "1T4", but not a Bafang one, which is different. This is just an example, there are lots of sellers on eBay in China and HK selling them, just check it's the right one.

I have an L6 controller and I was using the brake connector in reverse, as a "dead man's handle", ie, unless I was pressing a button on the handle bars, the motor would not cut in. I find PAS annoying and dangerous, having it kick the motor in at full power, just when you rotate the cranks to change down coming up to a junction. But then the LCD stopped responding to the button signal. It was also getting condensation inside and I thought it would be good to get a better display. Then I found they all seem to be 5 pins for KT LCD units.

I saw Bafang doing a 1 to 4 cable for their mid drive kits, but it doesn't use an 8 pin connector for the controller. I did a lot of searching on eBay and eventually found the one above. A lot of the newer controllers seem to be coming with these 8 pin Julet connectors now and they need such a cable. However, it's a good idea to check the gender. This one is male on the cable and I think the DAS KIT one is male too, so they would need a gender changer. I haven't had a chance to play with things yet, but the cable that comes with the DAS KIT system from the controller to the LCD might change the gender...I need to unplug, check, plug and have a play...but just so long as you are aware and prepared. I might have to cut the connectors off entirely splice the wires together and get the soldering iron out!

Yes, I didn't really want to spend more money on another LCD, but there seems to be a lot more choice out there with the KT system, and this adaptor cable enables you to use them. Some KT LCDs look like spaceship displays and with the brake cable separate, I could re-instate my dead man's handle. In addition, you might want to upgrade your controller. The stock DAS KIT unit I have is only 14Amps and you can't mod it because it is resin encapsulated, which is annoying.

I've seen some stuff recently about that on the web. A forum in the US had translated some stuff from a German site where they had hacked the firmware and intercepted the signals to and from the controller and LCD. I thought it looked interesting, but a bit over my head, so I didn't bookmark it. I'll see if I can dig it out...

Thanks for the link. I bought male and female 8 pin Julet to flyleads from:
www.e-bike-technologies.de
Slightly more expensive with delivery than that you identified on eBay, but faster delivery, probably. You may want to buy one of these leads to change the gender of only one side of the new connection.
I bought these leads to build the tuning device described in the German link, where a contributor seems to have achieved 36km/h with just tuning. I've collected data on my bike using the device and published it on the German site, but am still seeking guidance on how to re-flash the firmware to change the maximum speed available via the throttle I have fitted.
I haven't really felt the need to avoid unexpected starts, but did you incorporate the dead man's handle by interrupting the 5 v (purple) supply between the controller and display? Any thoughts on why it failed?
You will have seen from the EBR site that it appears the US/Canada model NCM Moscow appears to have a 18 amp controller at the bottom bracket whereas ours are limited to 15 amps, but if the speeds mods can be achieved without changing the controller that would be good.
Generally speaking, I'm happy with the assistance cutting out at 25km/h as I ride the bike for exercise and require (or get) assistance only when starting or climbing.
Others have complained about the dead spot when the speed reduces from unassisted 25+km/h due to an upslope. I can avoid this by judicious down shifting and nursing the speed with the PAS as it transitions the 25km/h barrier. I feel it's really the same as stalling on a hill because you're in too high a gear on a conventional bike.

 

[WheezyRider]

Thanks for the link. I bought male and female 8 pin Julet to flyleads from:
www.e-bike-technologies.de
Slightly more expensive with delivery than that you identified on eBay, but faster delivery, probably. You may want to buy one of these leads to change the gender of only one side of the new connection.
I bought these leads to build the tuning device described in the German link, where a contributor seems to have achieved 36km/h with just tuning. I've collected data on my bike using the device and published it on the German site, but am still seeking guidance on how to re-flash the firmware to change the maximum speed available via the throttle I have fitted.
I haven't really felt the need to avoid unexpected starts, but did you incorporate the dead man's handle by interrupting the 5 v (purple) supply between the controller and display? Any thoughts on why it failed?
You will have seen from the EBR site that it appears the US/Canada model NCM Moscow appears to have a 18 amp controller at the bottom bracket whereas ours are limited to 15 amps, but if the speeds mods can be achieved without changing the controller that would be good.
Generally speaking, I'm happy with the assistance cutting out at 25km/h as I ride the bike for exercise and require (or get) assistance only when starting or climbing.
Others have complained about the dead spot when the speed reduces from unassisted 25+km/h due to an upslope. I can avoid this by judicious down shifting and nursing the speed with the PAS as it transitions the 25km/h barrier. I feel it's really the same as stalling on a hill because you're in too high a gear on a conventional bike.

I used the brake sensor cable on the LCD for my "dead man's handle". I wired a switch so it is normally closed then open when pressed. So when you are not pressing the switch, the LCD thinks you have your hand on the brake. I think a wire must have come loose inside the LCD, but there doesn't seem to be an easy way of getting it apart to look inside.

I know what you mean about flat spots etc with the DAS KIT systems. Mine is an L6 display with a 14 A controller. There is something wrong with the firmware I think. It varies too depending on wheel settings, but not in a logical way. Sometimes it goes off like a rocket from a standstill, goes flat at 10 mph, then as you get to about 14, it cuts in again at max amps and then cuts out at 16mph!

I bought a 22Amp KT style controller, but didn't get around to fitting it as I needed this special cable (which got lost for about 2 to 3 months due to lockdown). Then I realised the gender was wrong on the new 22 A controller for my L6 display and also I didn't get a chance to figure out the best KT LCD to buy for the new cable and in the meantime, I was experimenting with my other e-bike with higher battery voltages, having fun with that and then experimenting with higher voltages with the DAS KIT setup.

I've found that running at a higher battery voltage solves most of the problems. On my other bike, I've been running that up to about 72V, but on the DAS KIT controller, it is resin encapsulated, so you can't get in and upgrade the capacitors and MOSFETS. There also seems to be a voltage cut out once you get above 61V, probably a protection circuit as it's likely to have 63V caps.

But I've found that if you run with a 14 cell set up (about 59V fully charged), it goes like a dream. You get a decent number of Watts into the motor, even though it is limited to 14 A. Plus the low current keeps the temps down. I suppose it means there's always enough excess power available, so if the controller does drop the power a little, it's less of a problem. Plus, if it's pure derestricted speed you want, 59V at 15 Amps will get you to 30 mph , no problem! Although you can only do that off road :-(

I wish I still had my dead man's handle, but I'm slowly getting more used to toggling the assist down to zero when I need to stop.

When I get the time I'll get hold of a KT LCD and fit the 22 Amp controller, but too many projects on the go at once! If you do make progress with the firmware mod for the DAS KIT setup, I'd be interested, so keep us updated

 

[WheezyRider]

Jokshot, did you go to the GitHub link in the EBR link?

https://github.com/NorthyIE/DasKit-C7BB-Tuning

BTW, I didn't notice that the Moscow is a 48V system, so going to 59V probably won't give you 30 mph top speed, my set up is 36V. Still, it might help having a higher voltage (although looking at the pics of a Moscow, it all seems nastily integrated!)

 

[DBye]

Leon cycles occasionally sell these which come with a thumb throttle:

Das-Kit Off Road/Private Land Use only Display Kit with throttle control, dual brake cutoff, advance

Das-Kit Off Road/Private Land Use only Display Kit with throttle control, dual brake cutoff, advance

www.leoncycle.com.au

The Australian company will, if asked very nicely, post to the UK (I got a pannier rack from them).

However, they appear out of stock at the moment.

I've looked at the Github for tuning the existing display. I'm tempted but in the absence of good instructions I think it would be easier to buy a KT controller and display instead!

 

[jokskot]

Jokshot, did you go to the GitHub link in the EBR link?

https://github.com/NorthyIE/DasKit-C7BB-Tuning

BTW, I didn't notice that the Moscow is a 48V system, so going to 59V probably won't give you 30 mph top speed, my set up is 36V. Still, it might help having a higher voltage (although looking at the pics of a Moscow, it all seems nastily integrated!)

I like the "nastily integrated" tag...marketing men would term it streamlined, functional, stylish, minimalist!
I built the original unit cited in the German thread:
Kommunikation zwischen C7 Display und Motorkontroller NCM Venice+ Das-Kit - Pedelec-Forum
using a Wemos D2 mini with the ESP8266 chip and was able to determine the settings. But I don't know how to change them to provide more oomph
I have a board availablewith the ESP32 chip referenced in the Github link (also linked from pedelec-forum.de) and will probably try to build a unit with that processor in the near future. But it's lack of my knowledge and confidence to change the firmware that's holding me back with my current set up.. I'll maybe contact my local makers group to see if anyone there has the expertise.

 

[WheezyRider]

I like the "nastily integrated" tag...marketing men would term it streamlined, functional, stylish, minimalist!
I built the original unit cited in the German thread:
Kommunikation zwischen C7 Display und Motorkontroller NCM Venice+ Das-Kit - Pedelec-Forum
using a Wemos D2 mini with the ESP8266 chip and was able to determine the settings. But I don't know how to change them to provide more oomph
I have a board availablewith the ESP32 chip referenced in the Github link (also linked from pedelec-forum.de) and will probably try to build a unit with that processor in the near future. But it's lack of my knowledge and confidence to change the firmware that's holding me back with my current set up.. I'll maybe contact my local makers group to see if anyone there has the expertise.

Nastily integrated/stylish is fine until it goes wrong or you want to modify anything
I find Apple stuff is like this.

Maybe these guys could help you...

C#ROME-B Home

First Page

opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io

 

[jokskot]

All earlier contributors may be interested in my post dated 22 June

 

[vfr400]

If it were my bike, I'd chuck the controller and display. For around £70, you can get a nice KT controller, LCD3 and throttle, then you're master of your own destiny regarding speed, power and throttles.

 

[jokskot]

"For around £70, you can get a nice KT controller, LCD3 and throttle, "

And for under £3 you can readily achieve increases in power and velocity with an expectation that further development will provide a throttle that will function up to the maximum speed (>25 kph) available.
I'm getting an increase in average speed of ca. 5 kph, a one hour journey is now taking 50 minutes and I'm using one gear higher than formerly.

 

[vfr400]

"For around £70, you can get a nice KT controller, LCD3 and throttle, "

And for under £3 you can readily achieve increases in power and velocity with an expectation that further development will provide a throttle that will function up to the maximum speed (>25 kph) available.
I'm getting an increase in average speed of ca. 5 kph, a one hour journey is now taking 50 minutes and I'm using one gear higher than formerly.

KT is a better controller. It has current control on the PAS (Torque simulation), it's smoother, it has faster response and programmable current, plus it has a raft of other features.

 

[jokskot]

"KT is a better controller. It has current control on the PAS (Torque simulation), it's smoother, it has faster response and programmable current, plus it has a raft of other features. "
You seem remarkably well informed.
Have you tested the existing controller and display alongside the LCD3?
Would the KT controller occupy the space where the existing controller fits ie integrated into the frame where the down tube meets the bottom bracket.
Would the connectors for the battery and brake-actuated shut-off match the existing set up?

 

[vfr400]

"KT is a better controller. It has current control on the PAS (Torque simulation), it's smoother, it has faster response and programmable current, plus it has a raft of other features. "
You seem remarkably well informed.
Have you tested the existing controller and display alongside the LCD3?
Would the KT controller occupy the space where the existing controller fits ie integrated into the frame where the down tube meets the bottom bracket.
Would the connectors for the battery and brake-actuated shut-off match the existing set up?

Yes, I am well-informed. I know the guy that owns the company. His name is Ding. I've been to his factory and had meals out with him.

There are two versions of the NCM Moscow controller locations. Earlier ones had it in the downtube, and later ones are mounted externally under the bottom bracket. I'm referring to the Lishui controllers with Das Kit C7 display (bastardised C700). They also used the cheaper L6 LCD with the integrated buttons.

The KT controller is smaller. It can fit in the frame, though I prefer to put them in a tool bag under the saddle because you can hide excess cable in there as well, which means you don't have to cut and solder the LCD and motor wires to get the length right, plus it's a lot easier to service in there rather than all the effort threading the wires through the frame. If you ever have to replace the controller , you'll see how difficult it is to get the wires through the frame with the other cables in place. Feel free to message me if you ever have to do that, as I have developed a few time-saving tips.

 

[jokskot]

So you haven't compared the LCD kit with the existing controller, let alone a bike fitted with the £3 "dongle"?
If you live in or near Co.Durham, I invite you to visit, try my bike with and without the dongle, and to bring along the LCD kit so that we can fit it temporarily, make the comparison and agree whether the £70 cost is justified.

 

[vfr400]

So you haven't compared the LCD kit with the existing controller, let alone a bike fitted with the £3 "dongle"?
If you live in or near Co.Durham, I invite you to visit, try my bike with and without the dongle, and to bring along the LCD kit so that we can fit it temporarily, make the comparison and agree whether the £70 cost is justified.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but I can't change facts, nor can I change the way your controller works.

 

[jokskot]

No hurt feelings. I just feel that opinions & assertions should be backed by facts, which you clearly have not produced.

 

[wattrider]

Does anyone have the pinouts for the Das-Kit throttle connector? Its a 3 pin Julet socket (female pins). I believe its the same one used on the C7BBT display (Moscow etc.). As it seems to be a hall effect throttle, I would rather not experiment with combinations of the pins in case it gets damaged.
Glenn.

 

[Nealh]

The pin outs will be std julet layout/sequence, other wise Julet are just wasting their time if it was wired differently and no wired product using their system would be compatible.
For the Yellow Julet female with the locator notch up top the three holes are Red/5v lhs, White/Signal rhs & Black/Signal bottom.

You can simply use your meter on the female connector, it won't damage anything unless you short the two pins. Place a sowing needle or pin in the 5v & Gnd to see voltage with the meter's probes.

 

[jokskot]

The pin outs will be std julet layout/sequence, other wise Julet are just wasting their time if it was wired differently and no wired product using their system would be compatible.
For the Yellow Julet female with the locator notch up top the three holes are Red/5v lhs, White/Signal rhs & Black/Signal bottom.

You can simply use your meter on the female connector, it won't damage anything unless you short the two pins. Place a sowing needle or pin in the 5v & Gnd to see voltage with the meter's probes.

 

[jokskot]

"Does anyone have the pinouts for the Das-Kit throttle connector? Its a 3 pin Julet socket (female pins). I believe its the same one used on the C7BBT display (Moscow etc.). As it seems to be a hall effect throttle, I would rather not experiment with combinations of the pins in case it gets damaged.
Glenn."
I understood you couldn't add a throttle to the NCM Moscow etc other than just a control which mimics the walk function ie gives a maximum of 6 or 8 kph when the button is pressed. Or has your bike been "tuned" and will accept a throttle, if so, I'm interested to know what you have done. Pics would help.