nvm moscow throttle

hi everyone, im new to the forum and have come with a question about the ncm moscow, i have owned the bike for over a year now and seen that the moscow plus has a throttle fitted to it, does anyone know if its possible to fit one to the normal moscow and if so where to purchase what i need in the uk as i cannot find anything about it at all.

 

thank you

Show us a pic of the main controller and it's wring not the handle bar display.

i will get some pictures tomorrow, i know its a sealed unit and one wire goes to the pedal crank and another goes away inside the frame

hi, here is a pic of the control box, not sure if it helps, one wire goes to the motor, one to the pedal crank and the others go up to the battery area

All I see is a BB shell with two cables running under it.

its a sealed unit fixed to the frame, there is no way of getting into it i dont think

In that case then a throttle can't be retrofitted if there isn't an unused three wire connection.

thats such a shame , looks like i need to get rid of it and look for another bike thank you for your help

The Oxygen ST uses a similar frame which is likely a generic China/Taiwan frame utilised by other companies with different components and motor kits, the Oxygen is throttle capable.

hi everyone, im new to the forum and have come with a question about the ncm moscow, i have owned the bike for over a year now and seen that the moscow plus has a throttle fitted to it, does anyone know if its possible to fit one to the normal moscow and if so where to purchase what i need in the uk as i cannot find anything about it at all.

 

thank you

Hello

just out of interest , i bought a Moscow at the end of May and was also looking into fitting a throttle , looks like the answer is no, not without changing the Lcd unit (as far as i can make out) there seems to be no info out there (did find something in German) and any questions to Leon cycle's go unanswered, i got the bike ok (tracking did not work) but am hoping i dont get any problems as i dont think Leon are going to be any help ... awful customer service !

very happy with bike though ... done couple of hundred miles to date (mainly cycle tracks)

let me know if you find out anything more re throttle ....

thanks

It is possible to fit a throttle by tapping into the cable linking the display and the controller fitted near the bottom bracket and I have done so.

See post 8 in the attached link for circuit schematic & background info.:

 

https://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index.php?threads/kommunikation-zwischen-c7-display-und-motorkontroller-ncm-venice-das-kit.57050/

 

Google translate will deal with the language if your German is not up to it!

 

You need to put 5 v (from the purple and black wires across the throttle Hall sensor and attach the Hall sensor signal wire to the yellow line. If you have a voltage display on your throttle and it has the range up to at least 60 v, you could also tap into the red wire of the cable to display the battery voltage.

Unfortunately all you achieve with this, is having the "walk" function (ie 8 or is it 6? kph) available via the throttle.

It should be possible to increase the speed available by resetting the firmware but this is beyond my ability & competence!

I have posted (under the same nom de plume as I use here) in the link given above but no usable feedback has been provided. If anyone reading this & can help with this, please post here or send me a pm.

An lcd won't enable you to fit a throttle, you need a controller with the wired out put for one as well as the PAS out put. One can't be used for the other.

It is possible to fit a throttle by tapping into the cable linking the display and the controller fitted near the bottom bracket and I have done so.

See post 8 in the attached link for circuit schematic & background info.:

 

https://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index.php?threads/kommunikation-zwischen-c7-display-und-motorkontroller-ncm-venice-das-kit.57050/

 

Google translate will deal with the language if your German is not up to it!

 

You need to put 5 v (from the purple and black wires across the throttle Hall sensor and attach the Hall sensor signal wire to the yellow line. If you have a voltage display on your throttle and it has the range up to at least 60 v, you could also tap into the red wire of the cable to display the battery voltage.

Unfortunately all you achieve with this, is having the "walk" function (ie 8 or is it 6? kph) available via the throttle.

It should be possible to increase the speed available by resetting the firmware but this is beyond my ability & competence!

I have posted (under the same nom de plume as I use here) in the link given above but no usable feedback has been provided. If anyone reading this & can help with this, please post here or send me a pm.

Hi, thanks for the info .... the German post was the one i saw ....

and you would probably have to flash the firmware alter a couple of lines of code to get past the walk function

its too much for me to try and do !

 

interestingly you can get a Das-Kit conversion with throttle and everything with it ....

https://www.leoncycle.com/e-bike-conversion-kit-48v-500w

but only availiable in usa .....from what i can see

At a price....!!!!

Possibly the motor available in the US has more power, but I suspect the rest is just firmware tuning. You've probably noticed the flash screens you get on switching on, include one that says EU300 or something which I take to be an EU compliant firmware version.

At a price....!!!!

Possibly the motor available in the US has more power, but I suspect the rest is just firmware tuning. You've probably noticed the flash screens you get on switching on, include one that says EU300 or something which I take to be an EU compliant firmware version.

Yes on all counts !

Yes on all counts !

Just looking up the specs of the bike available in the US and the ones which we have, I note they both have the Daskit X-15 motor with a quoted torque of 55Nm. It seems it's all in the tuning, now if only I could get some help...!

I know you indicated it's also beyond your competence, but if you have a mate, I've got the hardware that daisy chains into the cable connecting the display to the controller via an Arduino board.....!

An lcd won't enable you to fit a throttle, you need a controller with the wired out put for one as well as the PAS out put. One can't be used for the other.

 

Some of the DAS KIT LCD display units have an 8 pin input cable from the controller and then a subsequent set of connectors feeding out from the LCD unit for throttle, brakes etc.

 

But, the throttle is only 6 kph. From China you can order an adaptor cable, to convert the 8 pin from the controller to a 5 pin KT type display, with the throttle and brake cables as separate, direct from the controller. Maybe with this sort of set up you might be able to change the speed limit on the throttle. However, on a post 2016 bike, a throttle >6 kph is illegal anyway.

Hello

just out of interest , i bought a Moscow at the end of May and was also looking into fitting a throttle , looks like the answer is no, not without changing the Lcd unit (as far as i can make out) there seems to be no info out there (did find something in German) and any questions to Leon cycle's go unanswered, i got the bike ok (tracking did not work) but am hoping i dont get any problems as i dont think Leon are going to be any help ... awful customer service !

very happy with bike though ... done couple of hundred miles to date (mainly cycle tracks)

let me know if you find out anything more re throttle ....

thanks

 

Have you been able to get into the setup mode with the DAS KIT LCD? Codes I've seen are 8088 and 8018, depending on the unit. Then you can set the wheel diameter properly. Leon Cycles will not tell you this, I only found it on the web.

Have you been able to get into the setup mode with the DAS KIT LCD? Codes I've seen are 8088 and 8018, depending on the unit. Then you can set the wheel diameter properly. Leon Cycles will not tell you this, I only found it on the web.

I’d be interested to know where you can get the correct 8 pin Julet connector from in China. I was unable to locate one in China, but did find a good supplier in Germany. However fitting a different display is likely to cast £50+ & may not solve the problem of speed available via the throttle.

 

I was luckier than you with Leon and they provided a few pass codes to try. 8018 worked for me, accessed after pressing the + & - keys together for a few seconds. Difficult to describe but pretty intuitive!

This allows changing the voltage (if you really want), the wheel diameter and power which essentially limits the current supply. I have found little different between the “turbo” & normal, but “eco” limited the current indicated to 5 bars rather than 6 and made hill-climbing more demanding on the rider. If you change anything remember to press the + & - buttons together to save the changes and return to the standard screen.

Has anyone got experience of flashing firmware on microprocessors and could offer me guidance? ( see earlier posts in this thread and posts elsewhere on this site by me)

I’d be interested to know where you can get the correct 8 pin Julet connector from in China. I was unable to locate one in China, but did find a good supplier in Germany. However fitting a different display is likely to cast £50+ & may not solve the problem of speed available via the throttle.

 

I was luckier than you with Leon and they provided a few pass codes to try. 8018 worked for me, accessed after pressing the + & - keys together for a few seconds. Difficult to describe but pretty intuitive!

This allows changing the voltage (if you really want), the wheel diameter and power which essentially limits the current supply. I have found little different between the “turbo” & normal, but “eco” limited the current indicated to 5 bars rather than 6 and made hill-climbing more demanding on the rider. If you change anything remember to press the + & - buttons together to save the changes and return to the standard screen.

Has anyone got experience of flashing firmware on microprocessors and could offer me guidance? ( see earlier posts in this thread and posts elsewhere on this site by me)

 

This one:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electric-Bicycle-E-bike-Waterproof-Cable-Connector-For-E-brake-Display-Throttle/123935976242?_trkparms=aid%3D1110012%26algo%3DSPLICE.SOIPOST%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200603054315%26meid%3Dbd80460bd19f49d8b9f0a9f771f479d1%26pid%3D101196%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D402013901803%26itm%3D123935976242%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DPromotedSellersOtherItemsV2%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219

 

It's a "1T4", but not a Bafang one, which is different. This is just an example, there are lots of sellers on eBay in China and HK selling them, just check it's the right one.

 

I have an L6 controller and I was using the brake connector in reverse, as a "dead man's handle", ie, unless I was pressing a button on the handle bars, the motor would not cut in. I find PAS annoying and dangerous, having it kick the motor in at full power, just when you rotate the cranks to change down coming up to a junction. But then the LCD stopped responding to the button signal. It was also getting condensation inside and I thought it would be good to get a better display. Then I found they all seem to be 5 pins for KT LCD units.

 

I saw Bafang doing a 1 to 4 cable for their mid drive kits, but it doesn't use an 8 pin connector for the controller. I did a lot of searching on eBay and eventually found the one above. A lot of the newer controllers seem to be coming with these 8 pin Julet connectors now and they need such a cable. However, it's a good idea to check the gender. This one is male on the cable and I think the DAS KIT one is male too, so they would need a gender changer. I haven't had a chance to play with things yet, but the cable that comes with the DAS KIT system from the controller to the LCD might change the gender...I need to unplug, check, plug and have a play...but just so long as you are aware and prepared. I might have to cut the connectors off entirely splice the wires together and get the soldering iron out!

 

Yes, I didn't really want to spend more money on another LCD, but there seems to be a lot more choice out there with the KT system, and this adaptor cable enables you to use them. Some KT LCDs look like spaceship displays and with the brake cable separate, I could re-instate my dead man's handle. In addition, you might want to upgrade your controller. The stock DAS KIT unit I have is only 14Amps and you can't mod it because it is resin encapsulated, which is annoying.

 

I've seen some stuff recently about that on the web. A forum in the US had translated some stuff from a German site where they had hacked the firmware and intercepted the signals to and from the controller and LCD. I thought it looked interesting, but a bit over my head, so I didn't bookmark it. I'll see if I can dig it out...

Found it here:

 

https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/how-i-bypassed-the-speed-restriction-on-my-ncm-500w-48v-moscow-plus-29er.32699/

 

Follow the links in the threads for info.

This one:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electric-Bicycle-E-bike-Waterproof-Cable-Connector-For-E-brake-Display-Throttle/123935976242?_trkparms=aid%3D1110012%26algo%3DSPLICE.SOIPOST%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200603054315%26meid%3Dbd80460bd19f49d8b9f0a9f771f479d1%26pid%3D101196%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D402013901803%26itm%3D123935976242%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DPromotedSellersOtherItemsV2%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219

 

It's a "1T4", but not a Bafang one, which is different. This is just an example, there are lots of sellers on eBay in China and HK selling them, just check it's the right one.

 

I have an L6 controller and I was using the brake connector in reverse, as a "dead man's handle", ie, unless I was pressing a button on the handle bars, the motor would not cut in. I find PAS annoying and dangerous, having it kick the motor in at full power, just when you rotate the cranks to change down coming up to a junction. But then the LCD stopped responding to the button signal. It was also getting condensation inside and I thought it would be good to get a better display. Then I found they all seem to be 5 pins for KT LCD units.

 

I saw Bafang doing a 1 to 4 cable for their mid drive kits, but it doesn't use an 8 pin connector for the controller. I did a lot of searching on eBay and eventually found the one above. A lot of the newer controllers seem to be coming with these 8 pin Julet connectors now and they need such a cable. However, it's a good idea to check the gender. This one is male on the cable and I think the DAS KIT one is male too, so they would need a gender changer. I haven't had a chance to play with things yet, but the cable that comes with the DAS KIT system from the controller to the LCD might change the gender...I need to unplug, check, plug and have a play...but just so long as you are aware and prepared. I might have to cut the connectors off entirely splice the wires together and get the soldering iron out!

 

Yes, I didn't really want to spend more money on another LCD, but there seems to be a lot more choice out there with the KT system, and this adaptor cable enables you to use them. Some KT LCDs look like spaceship displays and with the brake cable separate, I could re-instate my dead man's handle. In addition, you might want to upgrade your controller. The stock DAS KIT unit I have is only 14Amps and you can't mod it because it is resin encapsulated, which is annoying.

 

I've seen some stuff recently about that on the web. A forum in the US had translated some stuff from a German site where they had hacked the firmware and intercepted the signals to and from the controller and LCD. I thought it looked interesting, but a bit over my head, so I didn't bookmark it. I'll see if I can dig it out...

Thanks for the link. I bought male and female 8 pin Julet to flyleads from:

www.e-bike-technologies.de

Slightly more expensive with delivery than that you identified on eBay, but faster delivery, probably. You may want to buy one of these leads to change the gender of only one side of the new connection.

I bought these leads to build the tuning device described in the German link, where a contributor seems to have achieved 36km/h with just tuning. I've collected data on my bike using the device and published it on the German site, but am still seeking guidance on how to re-flash the firmware to change the maximum speed available via the throttle I have fitted.

I haven't really felt the need to avoid unexpected starts, but did you incorporate the dead man's handle by interrupting the 5 v (purple) supply between the controller and display? Any thoughts on why it failed?

You will have seen from the EBR site that it appears the US/Canada model NCM Moscow appears to have a 18 amp controller at the bottom bracket whereas ours are limited to 15 amps, but if the speeds mods can be achieved without changing the controller that would be good.

Generally speaking, I'm happy with the assistance cutting out at 25km/h as I ride the bike for exercise and require (or get) assistance only when starting or climbing.

Others have complained about the dead spot when the speed reduces from unassisted 25+km/h due to an upslope. I can avoid this by judicious down shifting and nursing the speed with the PAS as it transitions the 25km/h barrier. I feel it's really the same as stalling on a hill because you're in too high a gear on a conventional bike.

Thanks for the link. I bought male and female 8 pin Julet to flyleads from:

www.e-bike-technologies.de

Slightly more expensive with delivery than that you identified on eBay, but faster delivery, probably. You may want to buy one of these leads to change the gender of only one side of the new connection.

I bought these leads to build the tuning device described in the German link, where a contributor seems to have achieved 36km/h with just tuning. I've collected data on my bike using the device and published it on the German site, but am still seeking guidance on how to re-flash the firmware to change the maximum speed available via the throttle I have fitted.

I haven't really felt the need to avoid unexpected starts, but did you incorporate the dead man's handle by interrupting the 5 v (purple) supply between the controller and display? Any thoughts on why it failed?

You will have seen from the EBR site that it appears the US/Canada model NCM Moscow appears to have a 18 amp controller at the bottom bracket whereas ours are limited to 15 amps, but if the speeds mods can be achieved without changing the controller that would be good.

Generally speaking, I'm happy with the assistance cutting out at 25km/h as I ride the bike for exercise and require (or get) assistance only when starting or climbing.

Others have complained about the dead spot when the speed reduces from unassisted 25+km/h due to an upslope. I can avoid this by judicious down shifting and nursing the speed with the PAS as it transitions the 25km/h barrier. I feel it's really the same as stalling on a hill because you're in too high a gear on a conventional bike.

 

I used the brake sensor cable on the LCD for my "dead man's handle". I wired a switch so it is normally closed then open when pressed. So when you are not pressing the switch, the LCD thinks you have your hand on the brake. I think a wire must have come loose inside the LCD, but there doesn't seem to be an easy way of getting it apart to look inside.

 

I know what you mean about flat spots etc with the DAS KIT systems. Mine is an L6 display with a 14 A controller. There is something wrong with the firmware I think. It varies too depending on wheel settings, but not in a logical way. Sometimes it goes off like a rocket from a standstill, goes flat at 10 mph, then as you get to about 14, it cuts in again at max amps and then cuts out at 16mph!

 

I bought a 22Amp KT style controller, but didn't get around to fitting it as I needed this special cable (which got lost for about 2 to 3 months due to lockdown). Then I realised the gender was wrong on the new 22 A controller for my L6 display and also I didn't get a chance to figure out the best KT LCD to buy for the new cable and in the meantime, I was experimenting with my other e-bike with higher battery voltages, having fun with that and then experimenting with higher voltages with the DAS KIT setup.

 

I've found that running at a higher battery voltage solves most of the problems. On my other bike, I've been running that up to about 72V, but on the DAS KIT controller, it is resin encapsulated, so you can't get in and upgrade the capacitors and MOSFETS. There also seems to be a voltage cut out once you get above 61V, probably a protection circuit as it's likely to have 63V caps.

 

But I've found that if you run with a 14 cell set up (about 59V fully charged), it goes like a dream. You get a decent number of Watts into the motor, even though it is limited to 14 A. Plus the low current keeps the temps down. I suppose it means there's always enough excess power available, so if the controller does drop the power a little, it's less of a problem. Plus, if it's pure derestricted speed you want, 59V at 15 Amps will get you to 30 mph , no problem! Although you can only do that off road :-(

 

I wish I still had my dead man's handle, but I'm slowly getting more used to toggling the assist down to zero when I need to stop.

 

When I get the time I'll get hold of a KT LCD and fit the 22 Amp controller, but too many projects on the go at once! If you do make progress with the firmware mod for the DAS KIT setup, I'd be interested, so keep us updated

Jokshot, did you go to the GitHub link in the EBR link?

 

https://github.com/NorthyIE/DasKit-C7BB-Tuning

 

BTW, I didn't notice that the Moscow is a 48V system, so going to 59V probably won't give you 30 mph top speed, my set up is 36V. Still, it might help having a higher voltage (although looking at the pics of a Moscow, it all seems nastily integrated!)

Leon cycles occasionally sell these which come with a thumb throttle:

https://www.leoncycle.com.au/das-kit-off-road-private-land-use-only-display-kit~9504

The Australian company will, if asked very nicely, post to the UK (I got a pannier rack from them).

 

However, they appear out of stock at the moment.

 

I've looked at the Github for tuning the existing display. I'm tempted but in the absence of good instructions I think it would be easier to buy a KT controller and display instead!